Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[luka]

why do you pretend to be an idiot

you have to if you grow up clever in england its a survival mechanism. but also i was drunk. and also it's true. all my friends are anti-semitic despite basically never interacting with jews cos england has hardly any of them.

 

[luka]

like you say its not that they want to kill them they just find them distasteful.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Hamas would drop that bomb in a heartbeat.

On the other side of the border though obv.

Your entire argument hinges around what Hamas "would" do, or what you think they'd do, if they could, while conveniently ignoring that Hamas obviously can't do these things, and that Gazan women, children and the vast majority of men are not part of Hamas.

While ignoring or attempting to justify what Israel actually is doing right now, and ignoring that no small number of them, including many in positions of significant power, clearly desire to do to Palestinians exactly what the Nazis attempted to do to Jews in Europe. Hamas, on the other hand, has stated that it would accept a two-state solution based in the pre-1967 borders between Israeli and Palestinian territory, with East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital.

So the Hamas leadership, at any rate, is less extreme than Israeli far right.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Your entire argument hinges around what Hamas "would" do, or what you think they'd do, if they could, while conveniently ignoring that Hamas obviously can't do these things, and that Gazan women, children and the vast majority of men are not part of Hamas.

While ignoring or attempting to justify what Israel actually is doing right now, and ignoring that no small number of them, including many in positions of significant power, clearly desire to do to Palestinians exactly what the Nazis attempted to do to Jews in Europe. Hamas, on the other hand, has stated that it would accept a two-state solution based in the pre-1967 borders between Israeli and Palestinian territory, with East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital.

So the Hamas leadership, at any rate, is less extreme than Israeli far right.

Didn't you post that thing saying that the person with the far right views was fired?

So if Hamas are as reasonable as you make out, why didn't its leadership condemn the faction that perpetrated the October 7th attacks? It doesn't matter what the Hamas leadership says now because those attacks have massively ambiguated any ostensibly peaceful overtures. A two-state solution can only be palatable to Israel if it were to lower the security risk from the level prior to those attacks. Hamas will need a generational change to rehabilitate itself; other actors will have to be involved on the Palestinian side.

 

[Mr. Tea]

So if Hamas are as reasonable as you make out...

Hamas uses violence because they've watched the Palestinian Authority attempt to use diplomacy and get precisely nowhere.

A two-state solution can only be palatable to Israel if...

You've missed the approximately five hundred posts in this thread where people have explained to you, with a patience you really don't deserve, that the Israeli Right does not want a two-state solution and has been deliberately preventing one from being reached for over 20 years?

Benjamin Netanyahu: Putting “an End to the Oslo Accords” & the Two-State Solution | IMEU

The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) is a non-profit organization that offers journalists facts, analysis, experts, and digital resources about Palestine and Palestinians.

imeu.org

They're perfectly happy with a one-state solution, in which that state is an exclusively Jewish Israel.

 

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[mixed_biscuits]

View attachment 16890

Hamas uses violence because they've watched the Palestinian Authority attempt to use diplomacy and get precisely nowhere.



You've missed the approximately five hundred posts in this thread where people have explained to you, with a patience you really don't deserve, that the Israeli Right does not want a two-state solution and has been deliberately preventing one from being reached for over 20 years?

Benjamin Netanyahu: Putting “an End to the Oslo Accords” & the Two-State Solution | IMEU

The Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) is a non-profit organization that offers journalists facts, analysis, experts, and digital resources about Palestine and Palestinians.

imeu.org

They're perfectly happy with a one-state solution, in which that state is an exclusively Jewish Israel.

That they thought diplomacy wouldn't work is no justification: it's like spiking someone's drink once you realise compliments* aren't going to work.

And now that they know that you spiked their drink the chance of them wanting to get it on is absolute zero. No wonder the two-state solution is off the table now!

And funnily enough that their drink was spiked retrospectively credits their judgement in refusing to shack up with them before the spiking.

*actually, not so much compliments as tediously persistent negging.

 

[thirdform]

I wouldn't mind hamas nuking England, just to wipe biscuits off the surface of the earth. That's an acceptable price to pay to keep us in piece on here. 60 m Brits is definitely a reasonable price, and what's more Israel won't even need to be wiped off the surface of the earth (let allone attacked) they can just become a glorious pariah state on a starving planet with hm govts homeopathic diets serving as their adequate nutrition. no vaccines at all for, well, anything. no hospitals even.

 

[Mr. Tea]

That they thought diplomacy wouldn't work is no justification: it's like spiking someone's drink once you realise compliments* aren't going to work.

And now that they know that you spiked their drink the chance of them wanting to get it on is absolute zero. No wonder the two-state solution is off the table now!

And funnily enough that their drink was spiked retrospectively credits their judgement in refusing to shack up with them before the spiking.

*actually, not so much compliments as tediously persistent negging.

I have no idea that gibberish is supposed to mean.

Basically you've talked yourself into a position whereby Israelis have human rights, while Palestinians don't, but also whereby Palestinians have moral agency, but Israelis don't. Thus when Hamas kills 1,000 Israeli civilians, it's Hamas's fault for being wicked racist terrorists, but when the IDF kills 20,000 Palestinian civilians, that's also Hamas's fault for not surrendering.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I wouldn't mind hamas bombing England, just to wipe biscuits off the surface of the earth. That's an acceptable price to pay to keep us in piece on here. 60 m Brits is definitely a reasonable price.

I'd be hard pressed to disagree with this assessment.

 

[thirdform]

That they thought diplomacy wouldn't work is no justification: it's like spiking someone's drink once you realise compliments* aren't going to work.

And now that they know that you spiked their drink the chance of them wanting to get it on is absolute zero. No wonder the two-state solution is off the table now!

And funnily enough that their drink was spiked retrospectively credits their judgement in refusing to shack up with them before the spiking.

*actually, not so much compliments as tediously persistent negging.

are you admitting to engaging in date rape? because this is.. a curious analogy here.

 

[thirdform]

the mask would eventually slip, what can you say...

 

[version]

https://archive.is/FSZNJ

Hamas’ attack on Israel on October 7 caught the Israeli army unprepared. But somebody seemingly knew in advance and made millions betting against Israeli shares traded locally and on Wall Street five days before the attack.

Short-selling Israeli shares – betting that they will fall – spiked in the days before October 7, far exceeding the short selling during “numerous other periods of crisis,” Robert J. Jackson, Jr., Joshua Mitts and colleagues wrote in a paper titled “Trading on Terror?” published Sunday on SSRN.

 

[thirdform]

only a complete eejit would fail a telling lies test like that. Your mum parred you even harder than Tim Westwood, fam.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

One thing I'm seeing a lot is this sort of exchange:

a: it was worse than any other thing in history. they mass raped all the women and children they got their hands on.

b: well there are records of rape but nothing to suggest that it was carried out wide scale or in systematic fashion.

a/c: wow so now we're relativising raping and killing of innocent women and kids. are you listening to yourself?


Seeing on both sides too.

a: idf are killing more civilians pr day than auschwitz

b: actually the numbers are like a third of the killing rate of auschwitz

a/c: ok so "they're only killing a third of what they did at auschwitz". great argument, are you listening to yourself?

those kinds of hyperbolic exchanges are common to all wars, which is kind of your point

but it is also important to understand how elaborate Israel's PR regime is, and how social media discourse is one aspect, albeit a minor one, of information warfare. as Aviva Klompas (who runs a prominent Zionist PR NGO) puts it:

if you to go to any tweet critical of Israel or supporting Palestinian self-determination or etc there will be the same handful of pro-Israel accounts (Eli Klein is one that comes to mind) hammering the same half-dozen or so talking points. I'm not saying it's coordinated by an Israeli cyberwarfare unit in some nondescript Tel Aviv office park, but there's clearly a message and a purpose.

Obviously a pro-Palestinian equivalent exists, it's just far less sophisticated, as has always been the case. Israel has major built-in advantages in propaganda. Most Israelis speak fluent English. Many, especially elites like Netanyahu, have spent significant time in the U.S. and developed personal relationships with influential Americans in politics and media. There is a well-documented and powerful pro--Israel lobby. Palestinians otoh basically have Rashida Tlaib, Electronic Intifidada, and TikTok. Even Palestinian suffering gets turned into hasbara in the form of ugly Pallywood tropes.

The interesting thing is that while traditional Israeli PR still dominates traditional media and politicians - it's literally the only issue that has wide bipartisan support in the House - it doesn't really work on social media. Hence this battleground. Tho I don't think the point is really to convince so much as muddy the waters sufficiently to make it difficult to draw any conclusions. And the Israel govt/its surrogates etc have aggressively gone after social media at the corporate level, whether it's attacking TikTok or - shamefully, if not unexpectedly - facilitating Elon Musk's antisemitism rehabilitation tour in return for his support with Twitter.

 

[thirdform]

are you admitting to engaging in date rape? because this is.. a curious analogy here.

especially as we've conclusively established you cling to the superstition of a two state solution, a solution which was even impossible in 1993. this is what being an idealist does to an mf. your poxy intellect has only led you to flights of fancy.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Also interesting, despite its overwhelming PR success, there's a widespread belief in Israel that its global public image problems are a PR issue rather than one of substance or morality

I don't expect anyone to read it, but this paper by an Israeli think tank about that mistaken belief is pretty good

Molad Publications - Israeli Hasbara: Myths and Facts

Israel's public diplomacy apparatus, contrary to its poor reputation, is well-coordinated and highly sophisticated

m.molad.org

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

sounds like a lot of bollocks that whole ai thing? like do the israeli even believe in that themselves? to me it just feels like the perfect excuse to carry out their genocide cos it's backed up by "objective" ai, or "objective" science, or "objective" technology

It's not new. U.S. did the same thing in Vietnam with Rolling Thunder, had a nominally objective system for grading targets by both military value and collateral damage and McNamara would assign them a grade. The A.I. thing is just a buzzy modern iteration of the same idea.

The main takeaway from the story for me was the massive expansion of acceptable bombing targets and the loosening of restrictions on civilian casualties. One thing that has surprised me is the low number of IDF casualties post-Oct 7 despite fighting in such a dense urban area but it turns out they're just pounding everything into dust before they send guys with rifles in.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

and also it's true. all my friends are anti-semitic despite basically never interacting with jews cos england has hardly any of them.

Do you ever question them about their antisemitism? Doesn't have to be aggressive, just "why do you dislike Jews, really". A friend or family member calling you on it is one of the simplest and most effective ways to defuse any kind of bigotry