D

droid

Guest
I agree that the Israeli government has mostly filibustered on this issue... though it is true that they are at least nominally committed to a two-state solution.

Personally, I can't really see how a two-state solution could be achieved, given the spatial entanglements at work in the region... And a one state solution remains politically impossible at the present time.

I would question the assertion that Israel is 'nominally committed to a 2 state solution'. Even if we ignore history, the current Israeli PM has explicitly rejected this solution, and members of his cabinet and opposition parties have expressed support for the widespread 'transfer' of Israel's Arab citizens.

The Brociner article is spurious and full of holes. He attacks a strawman (a tiny sample of 'leftist' criticism of Israel) based on false assumptions, and is suitably demolished in the comment boxes:

Ken Brociner takes it to be a “fact that the current Israeli government has demonstrated a clear desire to reach a two-state settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.” He offers no argument in support of this alleged “fact”.

It is not a fact. One Israeli government after another - Labor, Likud, or Kadima - has acted to stop a viable Palestinian state. Israel’s policy used to be openly based on “The Three No’s: No to a Palestinian State, No to a return to the 1967 borders, and No to negotiations with the PLO”. Nowadays, they sometimes give verbal assent to a Palestinian state, while sabotaging it in practice. It was the Labor Party that began the policy of building Jews-only settlements on the West Bank, whose purpose is to prevent the stolen land from ever being returned to the Palestinians. Many of the West Bank settlers are fanatics, they have a lot of clout within Israeli politics, and they have been encouraged (and subsidized) by one Israeli government after another.

The two-state solution has been endorsed by the Palestinians, by the Arab League, and by every important country on Earth, except two: Israel and the US. Israel has rejected a Palestinian state, and the US has supported Israel. That’s why, in the 16 years (!!) since the Oslo “Declaration of Principles”, no progress has been made towards a Palestinian state. While the “peace process” has produced nothing, the growing network of Jews-only West Bank settlements have rendered a viable Palestinian state more and more unlikely.

Why is the left hostile to Israeli policy? Because Israel is a racist regime that is ethnically cleansing the native Palestinians. In 1948, Israel destroyed Palestinian society and turned about 2/3 of the Palestinians into refugees. Israeli politicians including Livni and Avigdor Lieberman are threatening to expel the remaining Palestinians (who are second-class Israeli citizens) from Israel proper.
The left is quite critical of Israeli policy because the left is against racism and ethnic cleansing. Does Brociner disagree?

The situation is grim, but there are some grounds for optimism. The recent Israeli aggression against Gaza and massacre of over a thousand people has opened the eyes of many people who previously remained silent. A minority of Israeli Jews opposed the Gaza massacre, and their voices are increasingly heard on the American left: Uri Avnery and Amira Haas, for example.

The Israel Lobby has started to lose control over the debate, at least outside the Beltway. Earlier in February, over 1000 American Jews demonstrated in New York against Israel’s attack on Gaza.[1] More American Jews are speaking out in opposition to Israeli policy. For example Michael Ratner, head of the Center for Constitutional Rights, recently wrote “For too long, and I do not exempt myself, most of us have stood silently by or made only a marginal protests about the massive violations of Palestinian rights carried out by Israel.” [2] Jacques Hersh has spoken optimistically of a “Jewish Glasnost”. [3]

Not everybody is in favor of Glasnost, of course. Brociner’s article is an attempt to replace “shrill and hostile rhetorical assaults against the State of Israel” with a “balanced approach,” which is “balanced” between oppressor and oppressed.
It’s a good thing that Brociner wasn’t in charge of ITT"s coverage of South Africa during the anti-apartheid struggle.

In any event, I remain sympathetic that Brociner's central point that Leftist condemnations of Israeli have achieved very little. Or, to be precise, nothing.

How have you come to this 'precise' measurement exactly? Vernier calipers?
 
D

droid

Guest
As soon as Israel enters the debate, all rational thought ceases.

An interesting phenomenon I agree. It can lead to all kinds of grotesque and repulsive statements:

The Palestinians don't even care for the lives of their own children - it's all grist for the intifada / jihad against the jews and crusaders - otherwise they'd have realised how counterintuitive fighting an asymmetrical enemy is if you are seeking to protect yourself. Why not deescalate and save the lives of your children? Why not stop turning them into human bombs? Oh yeah - I forgot - revenge is more important...

http://www.dissensus.com/showpost.php?p=108810&postcount=50
 

vimothy

yurp
Well, the first sentence is clealy a gross generalisation. But there are some interesting implications of continued Palestinian resistance to Israel. The last century provides some noted examples of forced migrations and explusions of ethnic groups. For example, there is, you must surely agree, a significant lack of ethnic German terrorism in Europe. Why is that?
 
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vimothy

yurp
Point the second: all your posts on the politics board revolve around Israel, even when the nominal focus is elsewhere. This debate started because you posted a link to a story about IDF troops printing up un-PC t-shirts to celebrate graduation, which you constructed as IDF troops wearing said t-shirts to their graduation ceremonies with their commanders' approval -- a notion that is totally preposterous and so obviously untrue it should not even be necessary to read the original Haaretz article wherein all this was explained.

Of course, the t-shirts are not merely generic poor taste on the part of soldiers, but reveal something deeper about Israel and its security forces. That is, the t-shirts tell us something about Israel's character, in fact, confirm something that we already knew, viz. the racism of Israel and the IDF. Similarly, HAMAS TV confirms what we already knew about Palestinian society, viz. its racist, anti-Semitic character. Amirite!?!?!

But wait, there's more. Israel acts "without restraint" despite the fact that it is both within their power to reduce Gaza and the West Bank to smoking craters and inconceivable that they should do so. Israel is not Rome. It is not even Russia. Yet do not let these salient facts disabuse us from our priors: Israel is a racist, apartheid state, waging unlimited war on the Palestinians; it is a unitary subject, the indivisible colonialist embodiment of Meir and Dayan; unconflicted, its motives are simple, its goals are clear.

I mean, is there really any point to all this?
 
D

droid

Guest
Fascinating summary of positions I don't hold, have never articulated and are gross distortions of those I do hold. I guess I touched a nerve by bringing up examples of racist stereotyping on your part.

What's particularly interesting is the contrast between your distortions of my positions and you own protestations that I have misrepresented yours:

Poor old Vimothy, the objective observer, sympathetic to no side and interested only in detached strategic analysis, being harassed by an irrational and shrill critic of Israel... Its an entertaining, pompous and self serving narrative, but bears little relation to reality.

Since we're playing this game, let's have a look at some of the statements you've made on this board concerning Israel:

The Palestinians don't even care for the lives of their own children - it's all grist for the intifada / jihad against the jews and crusaders...

We know that the Palestinians have no reasonable or achievable goals (if I’m wrong, tell me what they are), but since they are admirably and consistently open about their hatred of Israelis and desire for revenge and destruction...

I don't think there is anything that Israel can do, other than wait for the Palestinians to change. They tried bilateral agreement, which failed, they tried unilateral withdrawal, which failed, or is failing. While the "refusal organisations" exist, I don't think that Israsel can make peace, because there is a significant portion of Palestine that doesn't want peace, it wants revenge and the destruction of Israel.

And why not stop the war with Israel and build Palestine? The there will be no Israeli check points. The economy will be the domain of Palestinians. The government will be chosen by the people. Of course it's easy to be rational from here, but it's also easy to see that peace will never happen while the Palestinians don't want it to happen...

Did multilateralism and the Oslo Accords bring peace? Nope. Is unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip bringing peace? Nope. Why not? Because a significant section of the Palestinians (and the rest of the Mid East) don't want peace with Israel. They don't recognise it. They want to destroy it.

...most of the Palestinians support the murder of Israeli civillians, their leadership wants to destroy Israel and set up a tryanny.

The Palestinians were offered a state. It was rejected. Then we had the second intifada. Ending the struggle would make everyone's lives easier. It would be a true win-win situation. I hope that it will happen soon, but I doubt it will. I think that a lot of time will have to pass in the MId East before the Palestinians are ready for their own state.

Lebanese villages were bombed because that's where Hezbollah's artillery was hidden. Hezbollah used Lebanon to protect itself from Israel's response and it worked.

Like I said upthread, you have to go pretty far back to find any Israeli terrorism. I think that's also to the credit of Israel. Does the existence of these groups in the past justify Palestinian attacks today?

We've already discussed the Sabra and Shatila massacre - the Israelis didn't set the Phalangists on the Palestinians. The reasons that the massacre occured are reasons internal to Lebanon.

Israel left the Gaza Strip in 2005. I don't expect it to bring peace, however - Hamas do not want peace.

Do the Israelis deliberately target woment and children? Of course they don't - even if you think them merciless killers, it wouldn't make sense strategically - look at the stats, or find some non-suspect ones and refer me to them.

Can you not see this difference between to ways of fighting? Professional soldiers on one side targeting combatants and protecting their people, and terrorists, hiding amidst the protection of their fellows, targeting unarmed civillians.

The wider context is the thousands of rockets fired into Israel since its unilateral withdrawal in 2006.

And so for Hamas, either Gaza is their problem and they broke the ceasefire, or it is not their problem and they cannot claim a single counterterror operation as deus ex machina

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=6695

All of these points are laughable and eminently disprovable. Some of them have been addressed in this thread. The fact that you actually have the gall to moan about being unfairly and 'ceaselessly misread' is particularly ironic.

As evidenced by the quotes above, your entire framework of the conflict is completely distorted, you quote biased Israeli establishment sources as fact, habitually anticipate and echo Hasbara, aggressively characterise Palestinians as terrorists - impossible to negotiate with, give the IDF the benefit of the doubt at almost every opportunity...

This all betrays a deep ignorance of the history and minuate of the conflict, compound by your weaselly avoidance of points when facts start getting in the way... 'hamas broke the ceasefire'... the problem is the rockets'... 'Israel negotiated for a 2 state solution'... preferring to change the subject, ignore it or just bluff your way through instead.

You are right on one point. Many of my recent posts in politics have concerned Israel. I don't really have time to post here very much these days so I tend not to get involved in new threads.

Since your so concerned about this, here's an off-topic Vimothy gem I'm happy to address:

Didn't we invade Germany? Didn't we declare war with them? Weren't the colonial, capitalist, neo-liberal Brits the invaders? (While brave Ireland stood with the Nazis)

Is this a statement you're willing to stand by? Are you really so fucked in the head and ignorant that you actually believe this?



Another thing I might actually agree with. Is there any point to any of this?

Since I started posting on this thread to address what I saw as counterfactual assertions from someone who has proved to be immune to evidence, ignorant of many of the facts surrounding the conflict and who has internalised the Israeli position to a degree that they don't even realise it... probably not.
 

vimothy

yurp
["Poor old Vimothy... being harassed by"... -- Are you harassing me? Am I really poor old vimothy? What are you going on about here?]

Anyway, lets first address the t-shirt issue. Your claim is that I am misrepresenting you. You said that they were worn to graduation ceremonies and thus had the approval of IDF command. Not true. Read the original Haaretz article. Of course, this is pretty damn obvious, or should be. Soldiers wear uniforms. You said that these t-shirts, which are approved of by IDF command, are pretty close to operational procedure in any case. This pejorative, but so far, so what. But you are not simply posting this story to discuss the issues (which is why you're not interested in debating Zamir or Aviner): there is no discussion here.

If I am wrong, just tell me what the true implications of the t-shirt story are.

The "two-state solution" rests on a disagreement about what a viable state is. Clearly, the Israelis were negotiating for something. Some are less committed than others. If we are not teenagers, we should be able to recognise this.

As for my own priors, you may well be right and I am indeed touched by your concern. And since you cannot be bothered to discuss my question about ethnic German forced migrations and prefer instead random non sequiturs (it all goes weird unless we're discussing Israel), let's try the following heuristic. Say its all Israel's fault, starting with the Nabka and continuing through every major event since then. What is the difference? An analogy. Russia has shelled villages indiscriminately in Chechnya. By doing so they reduced insurgent violence. This is counterintuitive but true. Increased lethality and destructiveness is even negatively correlated with insurgent activity. Casualties (mainly civilian) are an order of magnitude larger in a similar timeframe. And yet, and yet, where are the calls to boycott Russia? Where are the documentaries? Where are the posts? There's simply no time unless it involves Israel, right. But more generally, why do think that this is the case? And why don't Israel, given their lack of restraint, given their military capability, do exactly the same thing?

Ultimately, it comes down to this:

"Don't demonise Israel."

"But they actually are demons!"


Strange that this should be so when in the case of Russia, Sri Lanka, the DRC, Sudan, and so on, we are all capable of being so much more rational. More than that, we are disinterested. I think that the issue of narrativisation is the key.

Alternatively, consider Northern Ireland. Who is right and who is wrong? Again, I know my priors. But there is little to gain from one-sided condemnations. Obviously, it's all the fault of the racist Brits and the racist Unionists (and, perhaps, the racist Catholics). But this argument is really secondary to the true goal, which is not even a united Ireland (in my view), but rather human rights for Catholics. Furthermore, this argument -- you started it -- no you did -- is actually a huge distraction.
 
D

droid

Guest
Once again you've avoided the question Ive posed, as you have done throughout this thread, preferring to change the subject to my 'motives'. Typical weaseling... though understandable perhaps as its obvious that you don't have the knowledge to play the ball, preferring to play the man.

I'll answer your wider questions when you answer some of mine:

Did Hamas break the recent ceasefire as you have claimed in this thread? ("...A deal was agreed but Hamas did not stick to their side of the bargain, i.e. stopping the flow of rockets....")

Does Israel have a history of breaking ceasefires as you have denied on this thread.?

Was Ireland on the side of the Nazis as you claimed on the 'Why Israel' thread?

Can you outline exactly what kind of Palestinian state Israel has negotiated for instead of making snide misrepresentations of my position?

Regarding the specific issue of t-shirts. I claimed that your 'but it makes a for a more arresting image than a picture of a rabbi or some lefty IDF trooper waffling on about who knows what' etc.. bullshit was misrepresentation.

I'm happy to admit that I misread the original article, and that the soldiers do not wear the shirts to 'graduation ceremonies', though soldiers do and can wear T-shirts during training and whilst on duty.

As for the salient point about the t-shirts having the approval of IDF commanders. From the Haaretz article you linked to:

In many cases, the content is submitted for approval to one of the unit's commanders...

Drawings or slogans previously banned in certain units have been approved for distribution elsewhere...

..."Usually the shirts undergo a selection process by some officer, but in this case, they were approved at the level of platoon sergeant. We ordered shirts for 30 soldiers and they were really into it, and everyone wanted several items and paid NIS 200 on average." ..

...Do your superiors approve the shirts before printing?

"Yes, although one time they rejected some shirt that was too extreme. I don't remember what was on it."...


...most of these shirts are worn strictly in an army context, not in civilian life. "And within the army people look at it differently,"...

So, according to the article you linked to, these shirts are approved by officers (some are deemed too extreme and are banned), and are worn openly within an 'army context'. Evidence enough that this practise is widely approved of, and regulated within the IDF.

The implications of the story are obvious. That there is a culture of racism and brutality towards Palestinians within the IDF and that civilians are seen as targets.

["Poor old Vimothy... being harassed by"... -- Are you harassing me? Am I really poor old vimothy? What are you going on about here?

You've said that my comments were 'uncharitable', my implications 'monstrous' and that I have indulged in 'ceaseless misreading' of your posts. All the while professing objectivity... i'm responding to these accusations, by pointing out that you are far from the neutral observer you profess to be.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I don't really want to get in the middle of this craziness, but:

And yet, and yet, where are the calls to boycott Russia? Where are the documentaries? Where are the posts?

surely this is because nations/firms can't afford to boycott or tell off Russia, at least in anyway that matters? or perhaps that should the nations that matter can't tell off Russia? in economic or IR terms. I mean, see Putin holding Eastern Europe hostage lost winter over heating fuel, America's utter impotence in the face of the recent Georgian war (tho of course Sarah Palin was ready to start WWIII over it, which I'm sure even the Russians thought was crazy). etc etc

also, & not to be callous, but no one but the Chechens cares about the Chechens, at least enough to do anything to help them. & I wonder if perhaps the Chechens are, at least a little bit, victims of their own past success - it's rather hard to portray them as helpless victims after the amount of Russian blood they've spilled. whereas suicide bombers & rockets aside no Palestinians have ever managed to put a serious, lasting hurt on Israel or the IDF.

But more generally, why do think that this is the case? And why don't Israel, given their lack of restraint, given their military capability, do exactly the same thing?

I don't think Israel could get away with it, nor is it in Israel's interests.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The implications of the story are obvious. That there is a culture of racism and brutality towards Palestinians within the IDF and that civilians are seen as targets.

look man I know what you're on about & I don't disagree but - when has there ever been an armed conflict in the history of the world where there wasn't a "culture of racism & brutality" directed towards the enemy?

that's to say - this is the kind of stuff soldiers do, everywhere, to dehumanize ppl so that it's easier to kill them. I'm not saying it's good or justfied or anything, just that Israeli soldiers are hardly unusual in this regard.
 
D

droid

Guest
I agree with you Padraig.

There are people who seem to think otherwise though, and 'purity of arms' is still a myth put forth by defenders of Israel alongside claims that the IDF never deliberately kill civilians - the official story being that the IDF is not like other armies, that they take special care not to kill civilians - in fact, that they put themselves in harms way to achieve this aim.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
I agree with you Padraig.

There are people who seem to think otherwise though, and 'purity of arms' is still a myth put forth by defenders of Israel alongside claims that the IDF never deliberately kill civilians - the official story being that the IDF is not like other armies, that they take special care not to kill civilians - in fact, that they put themselves in harms way to achieve this aim.

There are many who make these claims, and you're quite right, it's bollocks.

But would you not also accept what Vim says about the huge disparity between criticism of the IDF and its actual war crimes, and those of the nations cited - Russia, Sudan etc?
 

vimothy

yurp
But nobody thinks that either, droid. The IDF do try to minimise civilian casualties, as do most modern militaries. For instance, the WP smoke munitions that exercised you so are used instead of suppressive fire. It’s obvious that if the IDF didn't care about civilian casualties then they wouldn't need precision weapons or even infantry, they could just use indiscriminate barrages and batter Gaza to the ground. And yet they do not.

And you only asked one question: "Is this a statement you're willing to stand by? Are you really so fucked in the head and ignorant that you actually believe this?"

Weasel, weasel, weasel, I can't help it. But you are uncharitable, a teenager, as evinced by your inability to disagree with someone without insulting them, even to the extent that you spout self-righteous invective at those who broadly do agree with you. To wit, you are waffles without the wit. In fact you are the,

young_ones.gif
 

vimothy

yurp
surely this is because nations/firms can't afford to boycott or tell off Russia, at least in anyway that matters?

I don't mean by governments. I mean that there are regular "Israeli Apartheid” campaigns here at work (a university). But the same focus is not brought to bear on other conflicts.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
There are people who seem to think otherwise though, and 'purity of arms' is still a myth put forth by defenders of Israel alongside claims that the IDF never deliberately kill civilians - the official story being that the IDF is not like other armies, that they take special care not to kill civilians - in fact, that they put themselves in harms way to achieve this aim.

well alright, that's all clearly bollocks when anyone says it.

I just reckon it's a diffferent kind of bollocks if that makes sense - it's one thing to lambast Israel/the IDF for having that dehumanizing attitude towards their enemy, which everyone has in some sense, & it's another criticize them for creating a myth/lying about not having such an attitude. that latter criticism I fully agree with. with one caveat tho - that many militaries, especially in modern times, do/have done the same thing. unfortunately, again I don't think it's much out of the ordinary in armed conflicts. admittedly the IDF & Israeli culture at large is perhaps considerably more egregious in this category, tho perhaps with more reason - living in such close proximity to the "enemy", the irregular nature of the war, the fact that it is essentially endless...
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
I don't mean by governments. I mean that there are regular "Israeli Apartheid” campaigns here at work (a university). But the same focus is not brought to bear on other conflicts.

There's also an ongoing campaign within the university lecturer's union to boycott Israel and Israeli academics.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I mean that there are regular "Israeli Apartheid” campaigns here at work (a university). But the same focus is not brought to bear on other conflicts.

well I dunno. I think other conflicts have provoked similar responses; regular old South African apartheid for one, Nicaragua back in the 80s (perhaps Reagan & Central America more generally), & of course the original & still undisputed champion of university causes, Vietnam. Tibet, to name one that is still ongoing.

I think one thing about Israel is that there are very clear-cut sides to get behind, & ones which a lot of Europeans/Americans can identify with one way or another.

also many conflicts - the Congo, for example, or Sudan - are just quagmires, I mean who do you want to win, if anyone (admittedly there is an element of this in Israel as well)? to ease suffering sure, but that's different from a "cause" where you can have boycotts & protests & such. also as I said, & again not to be callous, but I don't think the Chechens or the Tamil Tigers have that same kind of activist sex appeal. I mean, if there's been rivers of blood shed it's harder to get behind a plucky underdog - or harder to idealize whoever it is you're getting behind, if you see what I mean. plus of course Israel is so much in the public eye, whereas say the Russians have been pretty well able to keep Chechnya under wraps, at least to most ppl in the West.

I don't want to sound like any of these other conflicts are less "worthy", merely to answer your question of why Israel attracts so much attention. & let's not forget that Israel also attracts supporters like no other issue as well.
 

vimothy

yurp
Yes, I agree -- the Israel-Palestine conflict lends itself to narrativisation very easily. That's what I was discussing with josef upthread.
 

vimothy

yurp
droid, the quote does not say that the shirts are worn "openly". It says that they are worn "strictly in an army context", and elsewhere in the article it says that the shirts are generally worn in private. A platoon is about 40 men (I don't know the exact numbers for the IDF), so a platoon seargent would be the second in command of a handful of soldiers, and probably about the same age (i.e. early twenties -- see this post by Pat Lang). So a bunch of young men have privately printed some t-shirts. This reflects bragging rights, bravado, fear and a not inconsiderable amount of dehumanisation -- pretty normal stuff for young soldiers. What we don't know is how widespread this is (i.e. what proportion of all the graduation t-shirts these are -- the Haaretz article seems to suggest that they are a sniper thing, in the main). So there is no basis for generalisation.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
well I dunno. I think other conflicts have provoked similar responses; regular old South African apartheid for one, Nicaragua back in the 80s (perhaps Reagan & Central America more generally), & of course the original & still undisputed champion of university causes, Vietnam. Tibet, to name one that is still ongoing.

SA apartheid is the only equivalent I can think of - I can't think of any other campaigns for a nation's academic isolation the way there is now for Israel's.
I think one thing about Israel is that there are very clear-cut sides to get behind, & ones which a lot of Europeans/Americans can identify with one way or another.

also many conflicts - the Congo, for example, or Sudan - are just quagmires, I mean who do you want to win, if anyone (admittedly there is an element of this in Israel as well)?

Your brackets here rather contradict your first sentence. Get behind Palestinian self-determination? Sure. Behind hamas? No thanks.

edit: On 2nd reading I realise you were making the point that it attracts a very partisan 'audience', for both sides.

but I don't think the Chechens or the Tamil Tigers have that same kind of activist sex appeal. I mean, if there's been rivers of blood shed it's harder to get behind a plucky underdog - or harder to idealize whoever it is you're getting behind, if you see what I mean.

Palestinians never attempted or achieved anything like the beslan school massacre, and i don't have the numbers to compare, but are you really sure about this? Systematic suicide bombing for years and years, the Greek airport massacre, Munich etc etc. it's not all sticks and stones.

plus of course Israel is so much in the public eye, whereas say the Russians have been pretty well able to keep Chechnya under wraps, at least to most ppl in the West.

That'll be Moynihan's law. Maybe that's all the more reason for many on the international left to develop and propagandise a rather more nuanced view?

& let's not forget that Israel also attracts supporters like no other issue as well.

Good point - it's the issue that generates the worst heat:light ratio.
 
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vimothy

yurp
Tibet is another issue that seems to draw a lot of attention. I think the reason is the same -- the image of peaceful Buddhist monks being oppressed by totalitarian colonialists is a strong one.
 
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