D

droid

Guest
As the Corrie nears Gaza, Ive been getting this strange feeling that I haven't felt in years... like I'm almost proud to be Irish... ;)

So - who would travel with the next Flotilla if that's how this develops?
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Most serious error--no expression of remorse.

(I think?)

I agree. were it not for the deaths themselves, I'd have to say the response has been worse than the actual event, which can at least in part be chalked up to bad decisions made in the heat of the moment. can't see how it's anything but a strategic disaster in the long run. I'll say it again - Israel badly needs to get out of this Ashkenazi war hero paradigm w/its us v. the world mentality - confidence becomes arrogance if you can't back it up. I dunno if what comes after will be an improvement but it's a certainty that this isn't working.
 

vimothy

yurp
The response has definitely been worse. Incompetence is understandable at least but the disconnect there is staggering. They've tried to shift blame onto the activists at every turn. For whatever reason (there are several, you are to understand) it was their own fault. And it's so eye-bleedingly transparent.

*****

V. interesting read from Heller, expanding on the belligerent vs. insurgent distinction: http://opiniojuris.org/2010/06/04/eric-posners-incomplete-editorial-on-the-blockade-of-gaza/
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
and it's not just the disconnect, but how overwhelming its become & the disturbing qualities its taken on. the disconnect is something that has plagued the Zionist project since its inception (how could it not?), but until fairly recently it was somewhat counterbalanced by a very sharp self-awareness of the difference between rhetoric & reality. all states, I think, manipulate that difference to their own ends, but the Israel of Ben-Gurion, Meir, even Begin (astute political operators all, whatever else they were) was particularly good at it, whereas the Israel of Sharon & Netanyahu has become particularly bad at it. I think the latter actually believe in their own rhetoric, or at least lack that self-awareness; they & others like them have succeeded in making that conscious manipulation of the difference into an almost complete divorce from reality. consequently the public discourse in Israel has gotten much nastier, as well as kinda delulsional - i.e. whereas Meir Kahane was seen as a fringe figure in his own lifetime, now you have a crypto-fascist like Avigdor Lieberman as foreign minister. it's a complicated shift, & I don't want to present myself as (ahem) an expert, but I think there are turning points - '67, near defeat in Yom Kippur, Lebanon '82, first Intifada, Rabin's assassination, etc - where you can kinda see the transformation beginning & then crystallizing into a hard fact.

a bad look going forward, certainly.
 

Sectionfive

bandwagon house
Its hardly terrorism now is it. And I can't say I have too much sympathy for the "victims" being robbing of a handful of hours of joy, adrenalin and culture. Given what's probably happening a few miles down the road.
I hope it continues if it gets people asking a few more questions.
 
D

droid

Guest
Presumably most people have heard of this now:


More evidence of propaganda meltdown. Not only is the undoctored video still available on youtube after being released a few days before the doctored version - BUT Im sure this was also a story from last year? IIRC, a radio conversation with an earlier flotilla was alleged to have contained the offending statements. The argument at the time was that it was an open channel etc... and anyone listening in could have responded.

Regardless, this is incredibly sloppy work. Armies of paid twitterers they may have, but this is propaganda ala Delboy. Its just a shame that the only people they have to convince are Americans... ;)
 
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droid

Guest
I know we've been through the whole Cordesman thing and I have no wish to retrace steps, but there's one thing that jumps out from the very first paragraph:

The fact is that the real motives behind America’s commitment to Israel are moral and ethical.

The very idea that US foreign policy (and the foreign policy of most states TBF) has ever been dictated by morals or ethics is just so fundamentally flawed and patently false... it makes it very difficult to take him seriously.
 

vimothy

yurp
Not taking Cordesman seriously would be a mistake: he is very influential and well respected. That's why this article is getting flagged by everyone from the Arabist blog to Meir Dagan.

The first few paras are obviously standard boilerplate and of no great consequence.
 
D

droid

Guest
Okaaaay...


IDF Executed Mavi Marmara Victims

In my earlier posts about the killings aboard the Mavi Marmara, I used terms like “kill shot” and “execution-style” to describe these events. I based my judgment on the narratives told by eyewitnesses and the Turkish autopsy reports. Some readers were taken aback and accused me of overstatement, exaggeration and worse. But this video vividly confirms my strong suspicions.

It shows IDF commandos executing a passenger on the Mavi Marmara with one and possibly two point blank shots from above into the victim who lies on the boat deck. In truth, one cannot distinguish the face of the victim since it is blocked by a boat railing. But from the muzzle flashes and weapon recoils and the downward direction in which the shooter looks at his victim, it is clear this is an execution just as I described earlier.

The video caption claims this is the murder of 19 year-old Turkish-American high school student Furkan Dogan. While it is possible there is earlier footage not shown in this video that displayed the victim’s face and enabled one to identify him, I won’t vouch for Dogan as being the specific victim. But what is incontrovertible is that this is A Mavi Marmara passenger being murdered.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/10/idf-executed-mavi-marmara-victims/
 

vimothy

yurp
I'm hearing rumours that Israel has stated that future ships can dock in Gaza after docking in Ashod for inspection. Anyone else see mention of this?
 
D

droid

Guest
No... I think it would be fair though - as long as all planes have to land at Gaza airport for checking before being allowed onto Tel Aviv.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Well, Hamas and Turkey seem delighted. Did nobody notice the boasting of these activists over the last 6 months?
 
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