Islamophobia

vimothy

yurp
The weird thing is that the whole debate seems to be positioned around the idea that we don't want to have sharia law in the UK because sharia law = hands being choppeed off and 200 lashes for being raped, etc (and this is certainly the impression I got from watching Newsnight -- i.e. that this is a real danger if what the ABC says is put into practice), but I'm not at all convinced that that actually is the case. I mean, don't we already have some sharia law re Islamic banking systems?

If all "sharia law" amounts to is being able to marry in a mosque, and it doesn't mean that "Muslims" are forced to have the Saudi legal system, who cares?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
"For any X, you can, given enough time, find an undoctored photo of some angry beardy nutters burning X." - Tea's Conjecture

"This should not be taken to imply that all people who adhere to the same faith as said nutters also burn, or desire to burn, X." - Tea's Lemma
 
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vimothy

yurp
Eugene Volokh:

Thus, the Archbishop's proposal seems eminently defensible under the rubric of freedom to contract -- a freedom that I as a libertarian (squish that I am) believe to be quite important. It is the freedom of people to make their own rules for their own transactions, rather than having a one-size-fits-all rule set imposed on them by the government.

Such freedom of contract often provides important efficiencies, but it also helps protect professional communities (which may not want their internal disputes resolved by lay jurors or judges who know nothing about the relevant technical questions or the customs of the trade), helps protect personal choices, and helps protect cultural and religious communities that may want to settle their disputes using their own rules. So long as the decision binds only the contracting parties -- which the Archbishop seems to expressly contemplate -- civil courts should uphold it.
 

vimothy

yurp
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: What he wishes on us is an abomination:

What Rowan Williams wishes upon us is an abomination and I write here as a modern Muslim woman. He lectures the nation on the benefits of sharia law – made by bearded men, for men – and wants the alternative legal system to be accommodated within our democracy in the spirit of inclusion and cohesion.

Pray tell me sir, how do separate and impenetrable courts and schools and extreme female segregation promote commonalities and deep bonds between citizens of these small isles?
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
Good peice by David Aaronovitch in the Times today: 'I've read it so you don't have to'

Perhaps it's the fact that the Archbishop genuinely is holier than us that has contributed to the exuberant pleasure it has given so many people to misrepresent so violently what the poor man was saying. Or what I think he was saying, for I was pedantic enough - unlike some of his most enthusiastic assassins - to read the bloody speech.

Here is my summary so you don't have to: there are lots of religious people in Britain who look to religious precepts in their solving of domestic and contractual problems, and in directing their behaviour. This is “unavoidable”. Some of these solutions are recognised in English and Scottish law, and some of them aren't. Where they aren't, we run the danger that people will both feel and be marginalised.

Not only that, but with a non-hierarchical religion, such as Islam, we risk this marginalised legal process being controlled at a local level by “primitivists” and not by wise authorities: a bit like, say, the bishops of the Church of England. If we handle this right, we could have sensible Sharia courts with legal standing, and if we handle it wrong we could have a lot of bongo-brains exercising real power, but outside the law. And we won't like that.

That's his argument. And the Archbishop was quite aware of some of the objections. Supplementary courts could not, he argued, be used to undermine human rights.

So we would have a Britain-friendly supplementary Sharia and a “market element” in law for those who freely chose it - and who, sensibly, could object to that? Neither Dr Williams nor his argument deserved the beating-up they received. And if his contribution was “unhelpful”, it was largely rendered so by the reaction to it. Obscurity rarely in itself incites hatred. But he was obscure, because it is only with great difficulty and by seeking for evidence that we can work out where his direction of travel might take us.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
I do like Aaronovitch, warmongering Zionist nu lab lickspittle tho he be.

But you're only quoting the case he makes for the defence. His actual feelings on the subject were summed up in the 2nd half.

Once again he mentions the issue of the Catholic adoption agencies who, under the provisions of the Equality Act regulations of 2007, were forced to abandon their effective discrimination against would-be gay adoptors. This time last year Dr Williams wrote in support of the Catholic Church, arguing that “rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well-meaning”. And again he mentions those doctors who are permitted to exercise their consciences in the matter of performing abortions. “It is difficult to see,” said the Archbishop, “quite why the principle cannot be extended in other areas.”

Well, no it isn't, actually. These “rights of conscience” have unmentioned corollaries: the gay couple denied a chance of adoption and the woman who - if surrounded by Catholic doctors - may not get the treatment to which she is entitled. It is only if such exemptions are rare that they can be at all tolerable. The implication of the Archbishop's speech is that he wants them to be less rare.

The second main problem is that members of the community who may wish or need to remain in communion can be effectively coerced into accepting inferior supplementary justice. But he never tells you how such an outcome can be prevented. How would the spread of Sharia not be accompanied by pressure on Muslims to conform to its rulings? As for the rest of us, already we are affected in myriad small ways by the supplementary decisions of religious authorities. Children can gain or be denied places at state schools as a consequence of almost arbitrary rulings on their religious status by church and rabbinical authorities. But so far we've gone along with it.

The final problem is that the Archbishop's whole approach, if adopted, would change this, not least because the new religious minorities are so much bigger than the old ones. Acting as the effective general secretary of the National Union of Priests, Rabbis, Imams and Allied Pontiffs (or PRIAPus)*, he privileges religion over all other kinds of identities, but fails to point out why his proffered leeway should not also be taken up by Scientologists, Mormons, football clubs, political parties and any other community that offers “social identity and personal motivation”. Why should certain doctors not refuse to see women patients? Or deny blood transfusions? Why should Spurs- supporting cab drivers not dump Arsenal passengers in South London?

He meant well. In T.S.Eliot's play Murder in the Cathedral, before Dr Williams's predecessor Thomas à Becket gets hacked to death, he is visited by various temptations. “The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason.” Eliot was mistaken; even worse is to do the wrong deed for the right reason.

*in bold just cos knob jokes make me laugh.
 
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Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
I do like Aaronovitch, warmongering Zionist nu lab lickspittle tho he be.

But you're only quoting the case he makes for the defence. His actual feelings on the subject were summed up in the 2nd half.

Yeah you're right i was selective with my choice of quote. But not sure how to reconcile this bit: 'So we would have a Britain-friendly supplementary Sharia and a “market element” in law for those who freely chose it - and who, sensibly, could object to that?', with his conclusions later on.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Yeah you're right i was selective with my choice of quote. But not sure how to reconcile this bit: 'So we would have a Britain-friendly supplementary Sharia and a “market element” in law for those who freely chose it - and who, sensibly, could object to that?', with his conclusions later on.

I think he was summarising the Archbish's views, while doing a better job of putting his case for him. The gist of his piece is that the AB of C is wrong, but not as wrong as everyone's making out.

And you can see what he means.

The BBC Ten O'Clock News illustrated coverage of last week's speech to lawyers with pictures of handless beggars and men being flogged in public squares, as though the Archbishop had been advocating amputations and chastisement.

The Sun recommended that we all “Bash the Bishop”, probably not forgetting that this is slang for what was, for a long time, considered to be the sin of Onan. The conservative Jewish commentator Melanie Phillips exercised some extra-jurisdictional powers of her own in calling for the Archbishop to be dethroned (next week the Vicar of Dibley gives her choice of Chief Rabbi), entirely missing Dr Williams's conservative attack on the decline of civility and “customary ethical restraints” produced by our “narrowly rights-based culture”. He has even been accused of treason.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/13/muhammadcartoons

Danish newspapers today reprinted a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad, a day after three people were arrested for allegedly plotting to kill the man who drew it.

When the image was originally printed as part of a series of 12 by the Jyllands-Posten newspaper in 2005, it sparked global protests and there were violent demonstrations in Muslim countries.

The newspaper reprinted the cartoon today, saying it wanted to show its commitment to freedom of speech after yesterday's arrests.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
Can sharia law be reconciled with international human rights law?

like the English common law tradition, sharia is a vast body of laws, most of which are inoffensive to universal human rights norms. But the semi-literate political appointees that often end up as Afghan judges also get it wrong. Sharia forbids a range of practices -- forced marriage, for one -- that are commonly presumed to be authorized by the Koran.

Terry Glavin on Mohammed Ishaq Faizi
 
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