"rap and hip-hop"

Like a lot of French and Russian hip hop, they totally want to copy everything about the Golden Era, right down to the fashion -- FUCKING BORING. The stuff that is actually interesting is when a hip hop approach hits a local scene and all the weird mutations that take place when the hip hop aesthetic meets local cultural production and local forms of sociality. NOT people holding the torch (with every immaculately copied detail) for a very particular scene that happened 25 years ago in a very particular place. I can understand people wanting to preserve the history of a particular part of music history that was incredibly important and vital, but JESUS CHRIST this gatekeeping crap does it in the most boring way imaginable.



backpacking is pretty shit agreed. but france, as the second largest consumer of hip hop in the world, also produces some really amazing stuff. the thing is, the people who do hip hop there tend to have a north african background and so you get all these arab influences, both in the accents and the sounds. listen to 113, or fonky family, IAM or Assassin.

i dont know much about russia, but could you support your backpacking argument for the french by naming any acts you think cat to much from golden era style?
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
backpacking is pretty shit agreed. but france, as the second largest consumer of hip hop in the world, also produces some really amazing stuff. the thing is, the people who do hip hop there tend to have a north african background and so you get all these arab influences, both in the accents and the sounds. listen to 113, or fonky family, IAM or Assassin.

i dont know much about russia, but could you support your backpacking argument for the french by naming any acts you think cat to much from golden era style?

I don't, I don't hear a lot of Arabian influences in the music of the French stuff (though I do like IAM and some other French groups) but I haven't been paying attention recently. Also I don't know French enoughto tell if they had Arab accents. They always sounded very 90s to me. Like this: I can't hear any North African influence, it just sounds like watered down Wu Tang.

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Here's a good example of the Russian stuff... Just straight ripping. And it's really mid90s more than Golden Era -- Wu-Tang, Biggie, maybe some Eminem in there too. This is changing since 50 Cent established cultural hegemony over international hip hop exports, so now there's more derivative pop-gangster-SUV-type shit.

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Here's another one (won't let me embed it):
I guess it's not horrible, but it's not bringing anything new... it's too conservative, very boring.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
Well...

Remind me how many southerners or non-Americans made your top 50 MCs list.

As many as should have based on my personal opinion. MC Solaar would've made it but I don't speak French. Cats like Ty, Silvah Bullet, Maestro Fresh Wes, and other emcees from the UK and/or Canada I get secondhand and I don't live in the UK or Canada so I didn't experience the entire Hip Hop history of those countries firsthand so how can I compare them to American emcees I saw and heard firsthand? I can't write about what I don't know.

As for the South. What Southern emcees did I slight in my Top 50 list? Houston's Willie D, Ron C or Raheem? Miami's Shy D? Juvenile? Lil' Wayne? B.G.? Master P? Who did I miss that was just plain omitted because of East Coast Bias?

Think of all of the great Golden Era East/West Coast/Midwest emcees I left off. Where's Just Ice? King Tee? Dj Quik? Daddy-O? DMC? Special Ed? Busy Bee? Fresh Prince? Percee P? Twista? Lord Jamar? PMD? Too Short? E-40? Look at how many members of Hieroglyphics/Living Legends/Freestyle Fellowship that DIDN'T make the list. I didn't sneak Killah Priest, Inspectah Deck, Jeru Tha Damaja or several other WU affiliated cats in this list either so keep that in mind.

One.
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
I was at an alt-media conference, and they showed part of a doc on Palestinian hip hop. The dudes were all in baggy jerseys and the girls had tank tops and teased out hair. They rapped (very poorly) over the beat to "I Got 5 On It." When it got to the discussion part, a lot of people in the audience were actually very critical of what I think the presenters thought would play to the "base." They asked what the Palestinian hip hop crew was bringing that was different, why they were so derivative, why people who had been immersed in HH culture for a long time should support what looked exactly like wiggers ripping shit off in the 90s, except with another language. Jeff Chang said something about how everyone had to go through a phase where they just copied everything before they started doing their own stuff (and to be fair, it's a lot to ask from an occupied people), but it didn't seem to satisfy people. It seemed like, yes, on one hand they are using it to "get their message out," but a huge part of it was more about expressing a modern youth identity through the consumption of cool hip hop culture. The makers of the documentary had little to say, I guess they thought "oppressed people rapping" would be enough.

Actually, here, I found part of it.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Cats like Ty, Silvah Bullet, Maestro Fresh Wes, and other emcees from the UK and/or Canada I get secondhand and I don't like in the UK or Canada so I didn't experience the entire Hip Hop history of those countries firsthand so how can I compare them to American emcees I saw and heard firsthand?


What do you mean firsthand/secondhand? Can't you make judgements based on how much you like their records without standing on the exact corner where they bus' their first rhymes or knowing the colour of their pyjamas?
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Here's a good example of the Russian stuff... Just straight ripping. And it's really mid90s more than Golden Era -- Wu-Tang, Biggie, maybe some Eminem in there too.

This is pretty much what Romanian hip-hop sounds like, when I go over there to see the folks.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
Uhh...No.

What do you mean firsthand/secondhand? Can't you make judgements based on how much you like their records without standing on the exact corner where they bus' their first rhymes or knowing the colour of their pyjamas?


I saw EVERYTHING as soon as it happened in the American Hip Hop scene from 1979-2008 all FIRSTHAND and felt the immediate impact of how Rakim was received when "My Melody" first came out. I didn't hear London Posse, Demon Boyz or Derek B until they got imported from the UK so how can I weight them against a Rakim, KRS One, EPMD or Big Daddy Kane record in all fairness when they were well known giants at the time? When "It's Yours" first got played on the radio in New York and they went nuts for it. It was played in Boston THE NEXT DAY so NO, I can't compare the two accurately unless I saw it firsthand.

How can I keep up with the entire timeline of seminal UK Hip Hop classics and compare eras/emcees that I never really got to hear? I can't discern the well known from the obscure like I can with US Hip Hop. I really don't see how that's a hard concept to grasp.

One.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
Nope...

so when you were 4 years old you were attending block parties in the bronx?

No...I was attending block parties in the South End and Roxbury sections of Boston. Two of my cousins lived upstairs from me and they were DJ's so every new Rap/Hip Hop record I heard firsthand and/or saw their labels. I knew who Spoonie Gee and Busy Bee were and Jimmy Spicer were. I heard all of the old school crews do routines from tapes mailed to us from New York by our cousins. I experienced all of the new up and coming emcees and knew when all the new shit dropped from 1979 until this very moment as far as Hip Hop goes.

One.
 

Eric

Mr Moraigero
I enjoyed your responses to comments Dart: "yeah, he's cool, but he only made #63 so ..." How long is your list exactly? I had visions of something very very long (though surely finite): "yeah, he only made #6582 so ..."

But I think your list makes perfect sense, in some sense. You define your terms: "MC" means such-and-such, "great" means such-and-such, etc.; so, in a way, your list can't be wrong, as long as we understand that it means "50 Most Important Artists to the Development of One Notion of Hip-Hop Culture", though even here we have to define terms again, which you are clearly more interested in doing than I am. I personally just find the project of grading artists within this reductive approach relatively uninteresting. Why do we even care what artist is the most "important" in this sense? Which of the Founding Fathers was most influential in the development of the US political system?
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
I see what you're saying.

I enjoyed your responses to comments Dart: "yeah, he's cool, but he only made #63 so ..." How long is your list exactly? I had visions of something very very long (though surely finite): "yeah, he only made #6582 so ..."

But I think your list makes perfect sense, in some sense. You define your terms: "MC" means such-and-such, "great" means such-and-such, etc.; so, in a way, your list can't be wrong, as long as we understand that it means "50 Most Important Artists to the Development of One Notion of Hip-Hop Culture", though even here we have to define terms again, which you are clearly more interested in doing than I am. I personally just find the project of grading artists within this reductive approach relatively uninteresting. Why do we even care what artist is the most "important" in this sense? Which of the Founding Fathers was most influential in the development of the US political system?

I get what you mean, but since I'm part of this culture and I actually remember what it was like during the early lean years when the general public thought Hip Hop was a fad and that it would die out in a year or two back in 1979 and how the media lost their minds back in 1984 when they first saw a goddamn backspin I have to tell you that preserving this CULTURE for future generations this type of thing is necessary. Why? Because Rap fans now think that Lil' Wayne is the Greatest Rapper Of All Times. They've never even heard a Rakim album before. They have no idea of who Opio and Casual are. Tragedy Khadafi and Craig G are non entities and Trina is actually taken seriously. That's SCARY!

It's hard to explain but I equate it to religious experts arguing over the hidden meanings and most important characters in the old non canon Biblical text and the Torah and Talmud. My list top out at #100...that's my usual cutout point.


One.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
Well, lumping Lil Wayne in the same bracket as Trina is scary, to be honest. Weezy has cray lyrics, he's awesomely prolific, he's doing things with hip-hop that no other artist in the mainstream is doing. He has charisma in buckets and enough skill to stand up to most artists on your list. He really is a hell of an MC (by your own definition of the term, even) and it's entirely justifiable when he says he's the world's greatest rapper. Who else is even coming close to him now? And for the record, I do actually love Rakim and am pretty familiar with everyone esle you're talking about.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
I was right, you ARE the curator of The Hiphop Hall Of Fame

Not really. I just SEEM that way to you because of my role on the Dissensus boards. I'm nothing compared to some of the other "Hip Hop experts" I personally know. I'm probably the least dogmatic and most open minded of them all. Imagine how THEY must be then!

That's not scary, that happens when you're getting old. You will end as grandpa telling stories about the golden days.

I'm not that guy that thinks Hip Hop died back in 1997, I disagree with those cats that are stuck in the past and think that nothings been good since Company Flow broke up and Cannibal Ox's "Cold Vein" dropped. If you're just judging me by my posts on Dissensus since 2005 and have never read anything I wrote outside of here then you really have a skewed idea of "who" I am.

One.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
I wasn't.

Well, lumping Lil Wayne in the same bracket as Trina is scary, to be honest. Weezy has cray lyrics, he's awesomely prolific, he's doing things with hip-hop that no other artist in the mainstream is doing. He has charisma in buckets and enough skill to stand up to most artists on your list. He really is a hell of an MC (by your own definition of the term, even) and it's entirely justifiable when he says he's the world's greatest rapper. Who else is even coming close to him now? And for the record, I do actually love Rakim and am pretty familiar with everyone esle you're talking about.

The only way I was comparing Lil' Wayne and Trina is because both of them are "relevant" to the Rap listening audience as of now. Trina comes out with a new single and people actually care. Jean Grae's new single leaks and no one bats a damn eyelash. It's the same with Wayne, if he coughs on a track it's noteworthy.

I do consider Wayne an "emcee", it's just that he's so much of an arrogant knucklehead that he doesn't apply himself in all of his guest appearances. After "Hollywood Divorce" his guest appearances on Kanye's "Barry Bonds", Little Brother's "Getback" LP and his verses on Jay's "Hello Brooklyn" were lazy as all hell. That's one of the things that kept him out of the Top 50 list. His "Drought" and "Lilweeziana" mixtapes are crazy.

One.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
Well, in any sane person's world Jean Grae would be a superstar, as opposed to Trina, but hey there's no accounting for most people's tastes
 
I was at an alt-media conference, and they showed part of a doc on Palestinian hip hop. The dudes were all in baggy jerseys and the girls had tank tops and teased out hair. They rapped (very poorly) over the beat to "I Got 5 On It." When it got to the discussion part, a lot of people in the audience were actually very critical of what I think the presenters thought would play to the "base." They asked what the Palestinian hip hop crew was bringing that was different, why they were so derivative, why people who had been immersed in HH culture for a long time should support what looked exactly like wiggers ripping shit off in the 90s, except with another language. Jeff Chang said something about how everyone had to go through a phase where they just copied everything before they started doing their own stuff (and to be fair, it's a lot to ask from an occupied people), but it didn't seem to satisfy people. It seemed like, yes, on one hand they are using it to "get their message out," but a huge part of it was more about expressing a modern youth identity through the consumption of cool hip hop culture. The makers of the documentary had little to say, I guess they thought "oppressed people rapping" would be enough.

Actually, here, I found part of it.


i see what you/the alt media people are saying, but with this example you are talking about "the first rap crew from gaza".

here is a country who has not been so saturated with the hip hop culture (at least not from within, and i doubt if much foreign stuff has gotten through and been widely disseminated) to the point of boredom. maybe for them the hip hop ideal, which paved the way for the identity of such a large proportion of the world's youth (despite its original "golden era" confinement) is only beginning to realise the possibilities of their own freedom of expression now, in 2007 or whenever that film was taken. does that mean we should knock them down just for being late?

as for bringing nothing new, well - obviously they are talking about the issues which affect them, and its here i think that hip hop needs a deeper connection than "background music". i fundamentally believe that hip hop is not solely about aesthetic, but that there is some sort of message that the artist is trying to communicate. obviously this is true for other scenes, nothing "special" about hip hop etc... and the message is not necessarily radical, empowering or political, it could be ordinary, everyday, stream of consciousness etc... but if that point is to be accepted, that the song carries a message as well as aesthetic intent - then i think ignorance of the language cannot be overlooked. you mentioned that in french rap you could not distinguish whether the accents of the rappers had any north african influence, they definately do - the maghrebin french rappers do not speak like bougy parisians. and i think this is an integral point to the appreciation of the music, the understanding of intent etc...

i think development of hip hop can come about lyrically as well as sonically.

that said, i do agree that acts who simply rip off obvious american for prolonged periods of time (as those video's showed) are not bringing anything new, and are boring.

here is a song by Axiom - rising star in french rap, called Ouais Mais - i think he resembles the fusion of his maghrebin origins with the traditional french hip hop aesthetic quite well.

http://www.mediafire.com/?1t3wbm231xn
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
for what it's worth, i checked out percee p and guilty simpson the other night. apropos of nothing percee p gave a thorough and somewhat excrutiating analysis of the differences between MCs and rappers. "i'm an mc. that stands for master craftsman. anyone remember when you had to have skills to get a record deal...?" then more of the same for about 10 minutes. if he was trying to stop people dancing or having any fun at all it worked a treat...
 

Diggedy Derek

Stray Dog
Thing is with Percee P, all he does is go on about how he's getting fresh and stupid and he's on the mic, like this y'all, like that y'all. It's not exactly Marcel Proust.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
for what it's worth, i checked out percee p and guilty simpson the other night. apropos of nothing percee p gave a thorough and somewhat excrutiating analysis of the differences between MCs and rappers. "i'm an mc. that stands for master craftsman. anyone remember when you had to have skills to get a record deal...?" then more of the same for about 10 minutes. if he was trying to stop people dancing or having any fun at all it worked a treat...

Excruciating's the word. I left. Was Guilty any good?
 

swears

preppy-kei
from an interview with scorcher on hyperfrank

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorcher
I don’t even listen to hiphop I listen to rap, I don’t care about hiphop and dudes with backpacks.
[/QUOTE]


lol

Link plz.
 
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