BBC 2's 'White Season'

[Mr. Tea]

Of course the majority of people in the U.K. are white, but that's not the issue here--when k-punk says that "whiteness" is *pervasively normative*, he's saying that the cultural preferences of this white majority are not only practiced and preached by them, but that they're represented by culture at large as thee way to be, the "normal" way, the "natural" way...

Well hang about a second - I see women in London every day walking around with their entire faces, bar a tiny eye-strip, obscured by an opaque black veil. Now I think that's fucking weird, and I don't think it's hugely complimentary to the culture that makes women feel they have to dress like to that to be seen in public. Of course it's vitally important that they have the right to dress like that, if they so wish - but it's equally important that I have the right to consider it weird. Having three wives is weird. Refusing a life-saving blood transfusion is weird. Refusing to switch on a light or answer the phone because it's Saturday is weird.

I think a lot of people who extoll the virtues of a tolerant society have forgotten what the word 'tolerant' means, i.e. accepting something even though you might not like it or agree with it. I read somewhere a while ago that we're had a subtle but very significant change in the way we're 'meant' to think about multiculturalism and related issues, which is that we've gone from the eminently sensible and progressive idea that we should all respect each other's right to hold whatever opinions and beliefs we/they may have (short of outright Nazism/Satanism/pro-child abuse or whatever), to the idea that we should respect the opinions and beliefs themselves. Down that path lies relativism and the dangerous notion that people's beliefs should be sacrosanct, inviolate, above criticism - paradoxically absolute, in fact.

 

[nomadologist]

err who said anything like that?

I hate religion and religious beliefs more than anyone, but I think everyone should have the right to express their religious beliefs in any way they choose, barring those that cause physical harm or longlasting psychological damage (like torture or physical abuse).

 

[Mr. Tea]

err who said anything like that?

I hate religion and religious beliefs more than anyone, but I think everyone should have the right to express their religious beliefs in any way they choose, barring those that cause physical harm or longlasting psychological damage (like torture or physical abuse).

Yes, and I think that too! OK, so I was talking about mullticulturalism and cultural relativism and stuff that's (slightly) beyond the scope of the discussion so far, but it's intimately linked with notions of nationaly identity, class and so on. You'll notice that I'm simultaneously supporting the rights of everyone to believe whatever they like (providing, as you say, they don't infringe the rights of others); I'm just saying that we also have the right to disagree with each other. That we should respect each others' right-to-believe without having to love the beliefs themselves.

 

[nomadologist]

Of course but I thought we were talking about eliding class in favor of "whiteness" that stands in for "the working class" and victimizes whites in the lamest stretch of imagination I've heard about in quite a while.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Well yes, but unfortunately that's what a lot a hell of a lot of people in this country think, thanks largely to the tabloid press which is forever distorting the real concerns of white working class people* and blaming on immigrants social phenomena that have more to do with decades of bad government. It's very unfortunate that the whole issue has got so emotive and politicised now that rational debate seems to have flown out the window: so many people want to blame every problem in this country on supposed hordes of savage foreigners that the reaction to that has others crying "racism!" at anyone who isn't indiscriminately pro-immigration.




*by which I mean people who are both white and working class, not working class because white, or vice-versa

 

[nomadologist]

Well, if it's not racism, at best it's xenophobia, something the U.K. is unfortunately well-known for (stereotypically) in other countries.

 

[Mr. Tea]

My point is, though, that you don't have to be either racist or xenophobic to question whether it's good for the UK - good for the people, of whatever ethnic origin, who live here already, I mean - to allow unlimited immigration for ever and ever. But in left-leaning circles it's become an article of faith that Britain is a land of limitless bounty and is morally bound to accept anyone who wants to live here, no questions asked.

 

[nomadologist]

Yeah, well, it's probably challenging to get the balance right with immigration when you're talking about a small island. I'm sure there are ways of talking about it that wouldn't get the "racism" ball rolling, but that requires a willingness to avoid falling into platitudes on *both sides*...

 

[noel emits]

I live in Britain and I guess I would be described as 'white', although I'm a little bit darker than most Englishers. Neither of my parents are from the UK but growing up I was encouraged to only speak English and to adopt local values. Likewise both of my parents are from what might be described as working class backgrounds but because they were not encumbered by the fucked legacy of 'British Working Class Identity' (read some stupid inferiority / superiority complex successfully sold them by the ruling cunts) I was partly spared the crippling self-identification with some ridiculous class stereotype. And that I think is the main problem - that people define themselves into these little boxes. The English are really, really good at it.

Just from the small amount of friction I have experience from having a non English name and appearance I can get some small inkling of what it must be like growing up here with say a black or asian heritage and I'd say it's absolutely key that parents ensure their children are allowed to integrate and feel a part of the place. Some communities don't encourage this and instead opt to achieve a critical mass of their own to oppose local cultural values and I can certainly see how this causes problems and resentment. It's just rude isn't it.

One of the great things about London is that it's so diverse that nearly everyone feels equally at home / alienated there. Go some other places in the UK it's not the same story at all.

 

[crackerjack]

But in left-leaning circles it's become an article of faith that Britain is a land of limitless bounty and is morally bound to accept anyone who wants to live here, no questions asked.

I don't agree with this at all. There has traditionally been a pronounced reluctance to talk about immigration issues, more on a 'don't startle the horses' basis than a belief in an open doors policy.

And I think that's changing.

 

[noel emits]

I hate how people sometimes use their ethnic status as an excuse to be pricks. You know - an old Indian woman who is just mean and unpleasant to people and thinks that when they respond badly to her it's because they are racist. Or a black kid going around with the attitude that anyone who looks at them 'funny' or questions their behaviour is being racist when it could just be because they've got a massive attitude on and it's pissing people off. For example.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Just from the small amount of friction I have experience from having a non English name and appearance I can get some small inkling of what it must be like growing up here with say a black or asian heritage and I'd say it's absolutely key that parents ensure their children are allowed to integrate and feel a part of the place. Some communities don't encourage this and instead opt to achieve a critical mass of their own to oppose local cultural values and I can certainly see how this causes problems and resentment. It's just rude isn't it.

Yes, exactly. Integration should be encouraged as much as possible, with emphasis placed on the idea that learning English and mixing with other English-speakers needn't by any means necessitate immigrants abandoning their own cultural heritage. But as you mention, there are areas where communities have achived 'critical mass' and white Britons living there have become the ethnic minority and can end up feeling like foreigners in the country they were born in.

One of the great things about London is that it's so diverse that nearly everyone feels equally at home / alienated there. Go some other places in the UK it's not the same story at all.

Indeed. London, for all its problems, has far better levels of integration than many other cities. The biggest divisions here are socio-economic, rather than cultural or ethinic.

 

[nomadologist]

and white Britons living there have become the ethnic minority and can end up feeling like foreigners in the country they were born in.

Teehee welcome to any American's life. Is this really such a horrible feeling? Seems like quite a luxury to be able to indulge in feelings about something like that.

 

[Martin Dust]

so much fear... poor little whities.
to do what? make some quality programming?

To show that working class identity isn't a race problem but instead they trot out the same old idiots to make a program that has nothing intelligent to say - them and us, again. Oh fuck off I say.

 

[zhao]

absolutely key that parents ensure their children are allowed to integrate and feel a part of the place. Some communities don't encourage this and instead opt to achieve a critical mass of their own to oppose local cultural values and I can certainly see how this causes problems and resentment. It's just rude isn't it.

have always been fucking annoying to me growing up.

 

[crackerjack]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/30/thefarright

well worth a read - hits the bbc's dreadful condescension (albeit indirectly) right on the head

 

[hucks]

Her book, Estates, is really worth a read. It's a mixture of personal and political analysis of social housing since the war. (No! Come back!) She's one commentator on CiF who is always worth reading. This is a typically good article.

 

[john eden]

Her book, Estates, is really worth a read. It's a mixture of personal and political analysis of social housing since the war. (No! Come back!) She's one commentator on CiF who is always worth reading. This is a typically good article.

No, no I'm still here! I've actually got that book but hadn't got round to it yet, so this is a nice reminder.

 

[owengriffiths]

I dunno, I thought the book was a bit weak, her narrative can be a bit depressing. Though I would probably have appreciated the book more if I found it in a library rather than spending over a tenner for it.

 

[hucks]

Yeah, I got work to pay for it. And it beats the crap out of all the lame reports I have to read day to day. Didn't think it was depressing, though