emo bashing in Mexico
- Thread starter zhao
- Start date
vimothy
yurp
Pity these fucks can't be prosecuted as well:
(Their families, I mean. Not the detectives).
Detectives investigating the murder criticised the conduct of the defendants and their families throughout the criminal proceedings as "appalling".
Harris and his mother were said to have been "laughing and joking" when they were first interviewed about the incident.
Harris and his mother were said to have been "laughing and joking" when they were first interviewed about the incident.
(Their families, I mean. Not the detectives).
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Fucking hell. The apple clearly didn't fall too far from the tree in this case.
m33k +i93r
TheUnridiculousBearMix
hello all,
this is actually the first time i've posted a meaningful comment here, so - haha in true emo style ;-) - i'd appreciate some restraint if a lynching is going to ensue based on what i'm going to say (what a perfect thread to bring that issue up).
first of all i'm going to say how horrific the attack on Lancaster and Maltby was, and reading the details ("a noticeable shoe print on both of their faces") is absolutely gruesome. but i think this issue brings up specifically british concerns rather than relates directly to the emo issue.
i'm a little surprised at the spartan nature of most of the comments on this thread, its a really complex issue that deserves greater attention than for example the reductionist logic that tyro was ascribing to the aggressors, and isn't simply resolvable by saying that people should be allowed to express themselves however they like.
one of the most prevalent motivations of this emo thing is the hyper-internalising of experience, much like how the noise 'scene' speaks and sounds in terms which build a picture of interiority and (wilful?) alienation. both scenes have emerged at roundabout the same time and are dealing with similar issues (in the broad strokes rather than the minutiae), except one remains resolutely diy whereas the other is expansionist and flamboyant.
this is pretty crucial because its the very public (marketable?) nature of emo as a (sub) culture that contradicts its glorifying of ultra-personal narratives. its like someone who is so engrossed in their own misery DEMANDING that others notice that they are miserable, THEN expecting them to listen when they try to explain why their misery and pain brings them joy. i know people are going to say 'well that's just the goth ethos' but its not, goths wanted to form a culture which speaks to itself on its own terms whereas emo is trying to make a culture which speaks OF itself while using public platforms (which is where it has very questionably riffed upon queer theory and LGBT politics).
i find it very very reprehensible and warranting of serious justification if somebody i don't know personally attempts - nay, insists upon - starting a conversation with me which immediately appeals to their status as a victim, which justification emos are not willing to detail because of the reluctance to fight for their place on the soap box, rather that they think the soap box is NECESSARILY OPEN for any type of expression, regardless of how personal it is.
the points of connection between this and the current form of consumer capitalism, liberal-democratic 'inclusivity' rhetoric and the ubiquity of metrosexual identity (which transpontine touches upon) are numerous but i'm not going to go into it so that this post doesnt go on forever, but they further seem to indicate that emo is not a subculture in the sense that it has grown from the roots up, it is a variation of the 90's 'alternative lifestyle' bollox that has been condensed from a set of top-down signifiers (NIN etc being on major labels in the 90's) into a parasitic culture which attempts to appropriate all the values of punk, riot grrl zinesterism, goth, pop and queer, hand-picking and hoarding all the brightest stars of each movement without feeling any kind of responsibility to draw the constellations.
so anyway, HI - NICE TO MEET YOU ALL!!!!
this is actually the first time i've posted a meaningful comment here, so - haha in true emo style ;-) - i'd appreciate some restraint if a lynching is going to ensue based on what i'm going to say (what a perfect thread to bring that issue up).
first of all i'm going to say how horrific the attack on Lancaster and Maltby was, and reading the details ("a noticeable shoe print on both of their faces") is absolutely gruesome. but i think this issue brings up specifically british concerns rather than relates directly to the emo issue.
i'm a little surprised at the spartan nature of most of the comments on this thread, its a really complex issue that deserves greater attention than for example the reductionist logic that tyro was ascribing to the aggressors, and isn't simply resolvable by saying that people should be allowed to express themselves however they like.
one of the most prevalent motivations of this emo thing is the hyper-internalising of experience, much like how the noise 'scene' speaks and sounds in terms which build a picture of interiority and (wilful?) alienation. both scenes have emerged at roundabout the same time and are dealing with similar issues (in the broad strokes rather than the minutiae), except one remains resolutely diy whereas the other is expansionist and flamboyant.
this is pretty crucial because its the very public (marketable?) nature of emo as a (sub) culture that contradicts its glorifying of ultra-personal narratives. its like someone who is so engrossed in their own misery DEMANDING that others notice that they are miserable, THEN expecting them to listen when they try to explain why their misery and pain brings them joy. i know people are going to say 'well that's just the goth ethos' but its not, goths wanted to form a culture which speaks to itself on its own terms whereas emo is trying to make a culture which speaks OF itself while using public platforms (which is where it has very questionably riffed upon queer theory and LGBT politics).
i find it very very reprehensible and warranting of serious justification if somebody i don't know personally attempts - nay, insists upon - starting a conversation with me which immediately appeals to their status as a victim, which justification emos are not willing to detail because of the reluctance to fight for their place on the soap box, rather that they think the soap box is NECESSARILY OPEN for any type of expression, regardless of how personal it is.
the points of connection between this and the current form of consumer capitalism, liberal-democratic 'inclusivity' rhetoric and the ubiquity of metrosexual identity (which transpontine touches upon) are numerous but i'm not going to go into it so that this post doesnt go on forever, but they further seem to indicate that emo is not a subculture in the sense that it has grown from the roots up, it is a variation of the 90's 'alternative lifestyle' bollox that has been condensed from a set of top-down signifiers (NIN etc being on major labels in the 90's) into a parasitic culture which attempts to appropriate all the values of punk, riot grrl zinesterism, goth, pop and queer, hand-picking and hoarding all the brightest stars of each movement without feeling any kind of responsibility to draw the constellations.
so anyway, HI - NICE TO MEET YOU ALL!!!!
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Hi! Good post, and you're right that discussion so far hasn't gone too far beyond "ooh, how terrible" and reminiscences of personal experience, but...
...while I can't say I know any 'emos' as such (on account of not being a 15-year-old in a provincial town, thank God), I can't really imagine one "insisting" on starting a conversation about anything - unless you mean "conversation" in the figurative sense of visual communication vis-a-vis fashion and body language. In which case, I think I see what you mean - it's a look that shouts "I'm withdrawn and introspective, and I want EVERYONE to know it!".
Yes, it doesn't really do anything new, does it? Just acts as a cultural trash compactor for all the most easily visible and digestible/imitable elements of punk, grunge, indie, goth and 'nu'-metal. It's a look and an outlook (or rather, an inlook!) that's enough to make a 20-year-old in a Korn hoody mutter darkly about "kids these days...".
Welcome to Dissensus, I think you're going to fit right in.
...while I can't say I know any 'emos' as such (on account of not being a 15-year-old in a provincial town, thank God), I can't really imagine one "insisting" on starting a conversation about anything - unless you mean "conversation" in the figurative sense of visual communication vis-a-vis fashion and body language. In which case, I think I see what you mean - it's a look that shouts "I'm withdrawn and introspective, and I want EVERYONE to know it!".
Yes, it doesn't really do anything new, does it? Just acts as a cultural trash compactor for all the most easily visible and digestible/imitable elements of punk, grunge, indie, goth and 'nu'-metal. It's a look and an outlook (or rather, an inlook!) that's enough to make a 20-year-old in a Korn hoody mutter darkly about "kids these days...".
Welcome to Dissensus, I think you're going to fit right in.
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m33k +i93r
TheUnridiculousBearMix
yeah this is pretty much what i was getting at, although i'd add that i think because this kind of masochistic-attention-whore expression is de rigeur in the comms industries, for 15-yr-olds weaned on it it becomes commonplace to translate actual conversation into it. its the whole obsession with interiority - things like incessant txt conversations rather than talking (i've seen kids in the same room as each other at gigs txting across their reactions instead of walking a few paces, as if they are too emotionally attached to the moment to muster stepping across a room, and i've totally known people to try hitting on girls/boys via txting about some personal heartache or grotesque physical ailment). but yeah you're right because i was actually going for the implication that it all works in both literal and figurative senses. i can only imagine that the recipient of such information is kind of put in a guilt-headlock, you know, like "empathise with me or i'll hate you and tell everyone you're horrible and then cut myself and write a poem about it".
hehe. nice.
i just don't know what these kids stand for, which makes their vehemence as an organised faction boggling. "the right to be emo" - ??? - is this not just telling teacher?
cue something about "we are lucky to live in a country which allows protests" etc etc etc
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
That's right - you just DON'T UNDERSTAND, you don't know WHAT IT'S LIKE, and you NEVER WILL!!!1
m33k +i93r
TheUnridiculousBearMix
its not like I ever ASKED to be BORN, you know...
haha yes, I am from Luton - currently in residence here also - and yes its the shirts'n'Joop! types that generally have the biggest chips on their shoulders. bowling out of the yates's with girls 12 years their junior in tight skirts and sequin tops, b&h hanging from each of their lips and a swiped half pint of stella as they spy around for top saturday night kickin' fodder.
there's actually quite a lot of incestuous goings on between the punk, metal and emo scenes here i think incited by common opposition to these chaps, but that says a lot more about the generally poor levels of scene-determined crate digging of each rather than any integration. also that they're always out at student nights, so the degree of how seriously they take their involvement in their music doesn't really surpass the emo's shallowness either imho so they all congregate around the same £12 free bar. Real punks (sic) of course, listen to nosebleed techno these days and go to illegal parties outside Baldock.
A bit off-topic, I know, but a recent swedish documentary on the rock scene in Mexico City mentioned how rock was so scorned by the music industry there that the entire population of Mexico were being drowned in commercial, mega-label pop music (rock having been banned until the late 1970's), while only extremely wealthy kids- i.e. those with access to internet, $$$ to buy expensive equipment, private school english skills- were privileged enough to be exposed to rock music at all...
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Haha, no, really? Isn't this more or less the premise, such as it is, for that god-awful Queen musical that's STILL playing in the Dominion?
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Transpontine
history is made at night
haha yes said:
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m33k +i93r
TheUnridiculousBearMix
absolutely, only i kind of think you have to make relative dialectical judgements on the tensions between rival subcultures and sub-subcultures, as opposed to thinking of there being something like 'the rest'. generally i think the reason a lot of subcultures are wary of rival subcultures is because each one creates some idea of who 'the rest' are which they need to maintain in order to claim and occupy territories where 'the rest' are unwelcome. but this applies in the micro-sense as well as the macro-sense, eg:
yeah this is true. didn't mean to pigeonhole certain sects but what i'm getting at is that the splintering of 'alternative' identity is inevitable given common opposition and labels will then arise based on behavioural traits within the maelstrom of the 'alternative'. so putting emo, goth, punk and metal as subdivisions of the canopy term 'heavy rock', then the inevitability of tensions between subdivisions as part of the wider subculture are just as powerful in implicit ways even if it doesn't boil over into all out aggression as it does with 'the rest'. the mexican case is interesting as the implicit stuff is used to incite explicit lynching.
Transpontine
history is made at night
Agreed. I posted something very basic about Sophie Lancaster on my site and Ive been quite disturbed by some of the comments along the lines of 'chav bastards they're all the same' - which I thought followed the logic of the killers in some way, i.e they're not in my gang therefore less than human.
Transpontine
history is made at night
By the way checked out your life without dead times site, must say it made my day to see a situ-referencing project in Luton, haven't lived there for a long time but had lots of anarcho-punk adventures there.
In respect of the current discussion I notice you are putting on gigs at the George in Luton - the scene of an infamous sub-cultural clash in the late 80s. At that time it was the main non-casual pub with punks, bikers etc. (think the Blockers, now the Well was closed at that time). The bikers/angels were in dispute with the MIGs/BOLTS (Luton casuals and football firm), the latter smashed up the pub and did for the previously invincible bikers.
m33k +i93r
TheUnridiculousBearMix
Still see a few bikers around there nowadays, and there's regular thrashy nights that go on on fridays. not sure whether barbs are imbibed, however
. actually friday line-ups vary quite a lot. our thursdays are only monthly but it's as far as we can push it at the time being considering a lot of what we're doing is pretty off the wall. great pub though. one of the few gooduns left.Thanks.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Emos organise 'mass mope' outside Daily Mail headquarters this Saturday:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7425450.stm
I fully expect this to make retired staff sergeants up and down the country splutter into their afternoon sherry about the necessity of reintroducing national service.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7425450.stm
I fully expect this to make retired staff sergeants up and down the country splutter into their afternoon sherry about the necessity of reintroducing national service.
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mos dan
fact music
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7425450.stm
I fully expect this to make retired staff sergeants up and down the country splutter into their afternoon sherry about the necessity of reintroducing national service.
*cries 'egad' as monocle drops onto copy of daily telegraph*
i'm almost tempted to pop along and check this out - an emo protest???
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
No doubt it'll be a few hundred identially-dressed, -coifed and -made-up 'individuals' complaining that "no-one understands" how hard it is to be, er, a white middle-class suburban teenager. If they can overcome their apathy to actually leave the house and turn up, that is. You couldn't make it up!
Client Eastwood
Well-known member
Feckers. Really no need for this . . .
"Members of West Yorkshire's Goth community have spoken out about the prejudice they suffer after an attack in which a man's ear was cut off."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7592714.stm
"Members of West Yorkshire's Goth community have spoken out about the prejudice they suffer after an attack in which a man's ear was cut off."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7592714.stm