Food 'n' Class

[Mr. Tea]

You can knock it if you like but I think the best approach is to get kids excited about healthy eating and exercise at school. This has not happened for a long time until recently.

Oh, absolutely, I think this is utterly crucial and a great thing. Otherwise we'll soon be looking at a third generation of kids at state schools that are happy to let them eat chips and drink Coke for lunch five days a week.

This may not please K-Punk but I'm not sure I'm too worried about that.

 

[IdleRich]

"Natasha can see the life of obesity and illness ahead of them; it's not that she doesn't share the middle-class fantasy of sitting down to a cosy communal table each night, but despite her eight-hob gas cooker and the countless cookery shows on her flatscreen TV, she doesn't seem to know what to do."

There are countless cookery shows on tv but as far as I'm aware they don't tend to teach people how to cook baked beans, rather they concentrate on the kind of complicated dishes that are not likely to be of any use to this woman.

"Fair point, Natasha probably had a similar upbringing herself - but this inability (or refusal) to cook must have started somewhere along the line. People didn't live on pot noodles and kebabs a hundred years ago, or even fifty years ago."

This is a relevant question I think. Where along the line did it become considered unimportant to pass along the ability to cook to your child? And why?

 

[john eden]

Hi Tomas

Yes I think people do tend to overlook the intensity of the psychological aspects - just because it's only in your head doesn't mean it is easy to get rid of. The lack of confidence shown by some people I've met is shocking - profoundly upsetting.

And certainly depression seems pretty rife (all the studies about valium / prozac being dished out routinely in some areas).

 

[Mr. Tea]

There are countless cookery shows on tv but as far as I'm aware they don't tend to teach people how to cook baked beans

If you need to be shown how to 'cook' (heat) a tin of beans then you're beyond help.

Anyway, Delia's latest series is pitched at about this level by all accounts.

 

[STN]

I was never taught to cook when I was younger and as such was utterly baffled and intimidated by everything to do with cooking, to the point of looking utterly hapless and spoiled to my peers (when I went to university). thankfully for me, I had three years with masses of time on my hands and loads of posh friends with which to arse about learning to cook. My sister is only just learning at the age of thirty. It's astonishing what a block lacking a little knowledge can feel like.

 

[john eden]

This is surely correct... With the corollary point being that the situation is obviously not helped by the idea that some foods are working class, other foods are middle class, and so on, so that working class pride = happily eating shit.

Yes it seems a bit bizarre for cheerleaders of the working class to want to limit their options so much.

 

[swears]

I think some state intervention is needed. I don't see why the commercial sector would want to curtail sales of convenient and addictive junk food. And I don't see how people are going to change their dietary habits overnight because they've been told to pull their socks up. So maybe a combination of education, subsidised healthy food for people on benefits/lower incomes and some sort of taxation on fatty foods would do us some good. It's a question of "changing the culture" I suppose, although it's gonna be a bugger to achieve.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yes it seems a bit bizarre for cheerleaders of the working class to want to limit their options so much.

For a moment I thought you were talking about actual working-class cheerleaders whose ambitions are stifled because they're too fat as a result of living on burgers...

 

[HMGovt’s Glorious Return!]

Pretty soon the UK's shelves will be as empty as those in Harare and the only food will be rats hunted by candlelight and air-dropped sacks of grain with 'greetings from your Chinese friends' on them, so there'll be no choice but to get creative in the kitchen.

 

[Mr. Tea]

If the state of the economy leads to a renaissance of bubble'n'squeak and bread-and-butter pudding, then I'm all for it.

 

[IdleRich]

"I think some state intervention is needed."

Maybe so but how have we got to this stage? Do other countries have this problem? I guess the US does and Australians, Mexicans and and others are pretty obese though I susect that some of those are not for quite the same reasons.

 

[Mr. Tea]

From what I understand of America, fast food over there is *ultra* cheap and is actually the only thing a lot of the poorest people can afford to buy. In some parts half-decent raw ingredients (and I don't mean organic lamb's lettuce, I mean ordinary fruit/veg/meat/fish that hasn't been processed to buggery) is either outside many people's budgets or simply not to be had at all.

Any Americans here got any input on this? I'm going mainly on what I've heard from other people...

 

[josef k.]

So maybe a combination of education, subsidised healthy food for people on benefits/lower incomes and some sort of taxation on fatty foods would do us some good. It's a question of "changing the culture" I suppose, although it's gonna be a bugger to achieve.

From what I understand of America, fast food over there is *ultra* cheap and is actually the only thing a lot of the poorest people can afford to buy. In some parts half-decent raw ingredients (and I don't mean organic lamb's lettuce, I mean ordinary fruit/veg/meat/fish that hasn't been processed to buggery) is either outside many people's budgets or simply not to be had at all.

Any Americans here got any input on this? I'm going mainly on what I've heard from other people...

There was a recent zoning innovation in LA - very controversial - in which the local authorities sought to place a moratorium on fast food outfits in poor neighbourhoods. A Slate piece on the subject is here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2196397/

 

[slim jenkins]

I watched the programme last night...the sight of that kid chewing kebab from a carton whilst sat on the floor was pretty horrific. Some of the 'pupils' were afraid to handle raw meat...not even knowing how to use a cooker? Unreal. Mind you, one of the houses they lived in looked depressing enough to make anyone give up - terrible taste in sofas too - but that's another matter (or is it somehow related?)

I was raised on standard working class food - meat, spuds and veg home cooked - no foreign muck! Curry? No way. Italian? Forget it. That age now seems like a golden one as far as working class eating habits are concerned. Couldn't help wondering how things got this bad afterwards...supermarket ready meals? The plethora of kebab shops and Chicken Village?

Someone mentioned the psychological element, which is surely the key because budget doesn't come into if you're wise to buying food. Education, yes...christ, what kind of age are we living in when, despite all the cookery programmes and recipes in 'papers/magazines a lot of people need educating?

Somewhere down the line the tradition of good home cooking was trashed...in the 80s, I'm guessing. Women do work full time now, but it only takes 20mins to cook a decent meal.

I think there used to be a subconscious snobbery/elitism about eating out because it once was a treat for the working classes, but now it's more common (even I can do it regularly) - that effect is lessened - until you get snobby about where you eat.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Hmm...

And what about the argument that people in South-Central need the government to block unhealthy food options because they're "in a poor situation" to locate better choices? This is the argument normally made for restricting children's food options at school—that they're more dependent and vulnerable than the rest of us. How do you feel about treating poor people like children?

But surely if you're poor you ARE, in many ways, more vulnerable than wealthier people? More vulnerable to obesity and general poor health, that much is obvious. And more dependent on places that sell food (and everything else) at low prices. After all, if you've got money you can eat in nice restaurants or shop in Whole Foods, but if for some reason you still want to 'dine' at McDonalds (perhaps you're Julie Burchill?) you can. Whereas obviously there are a lot of people who can afford to eat in Maccy D's but can't afford Whole Foods. There's a fundamental asymmetry of choice.

I dunno, I can kind of see where the author of that piece is coming from but it does sound a bit like he's saying "if povvos want to eat themselves into an early grave then let them".

 

[josef k.]

Hmm... I dunno, I can kind of see where the author of that piece is coming from but it does sound a bit like he's saying "if povvos want to eat themselves into an early grave then let them".

Saletan himself (the author) obviously wouldn't see it like this... his position would be that the government has no business engaging in the kind of social engineering which this measure plainly represents.

In other words, there is a deeper political question at stake here for him, and not just for him. This is: What is the proper role of government? Should government intervene into the politics of class and food?

Personally, I think yes... After all, it already intervenes into health issues with respect to smoking and drinking. Why not into junk food as well, which is just as pernicious? Hell. Why stop with poor neighborhoods? Why not tax the fuck out of it everywhere?

 

[don_quixote]

Fair point, Natasha probably had a similar upbringing herself - but this inability (or refusal) to cook must have started somewhere along the line. People didn't live on pot noodles and kebabs a hundred years ago, or even fifty years ago. And if you want to learn, there's never been more opportunities to find out how.

how old will she be? 25, 26? thatchers child; she's the product of the early national curriculum. "designing" food to get away from actually cooking things. we spent a whol term designing 'special bread' to cook. and we did apple crumble. hardly useful was it?

why teach them to cook when you can teach them how to design it at a fraction of the cost?

 

[don_quixote]

If you need to be shown how to 'cook' (heat) a tin of beans then you're beyond help.

Anyway, Delia's latest series is pitched at about this level by all accounts.

no you're not. no one is ever beyond help. human beings are born with a capacity to learn, hence if they can be inspired to learn to eased in their learning, then they will learn. i'm pretty sure that if we gave them a nintendo wii they'd be able to pick that up pretty quickly - why not cooking?

delia's latest series doesn't really does it? delia has always taught how to cook, but im doubting they can afford to buy the accompanying book.

 

[mistersloane]

Yes I think people do tend to overlook the intensity of the psychological aspects - just because it's only in your head doesn't mean it is easy to get rid of. The lack of confidence shown by some people I've met is shocking - profoundly upsetting. And certainly depression seems pretty rife (all the studies about valium / prozac being dished out routinely in some areas).

Yeah, I think what's interesting about this program is it's Oliver confronting his own prejudices. It's all very well saying to people that you can cook and eat on a budget, but if you've been worn down so much that your confidence doesn't stretch to having any confidence in your own ideas - and cooking is about ideas - then it doesn't matter how many recipes are paraded in front of you, you'll maybe only feel good enough about yourself once a month if that to get it together to do the preparation. I don't think many people really understand just how grinding living on a perpetual budget can be.

 

[Mr. Tea]

no you're not. no one is ever beyond help. human beings are born with a capacity to learn, hence if they can be inspired to learn to eased in their learning, then they will learn. i'm pretty sure that if we gave them a nintendo wii they'd be able to pick that up pretty quickly - why not cooking?

Well the instructions are printed on the tin. Assuming, that is, that the person attempting to eat them can read. Or use a knife and fork. Or wipe their own arse.

delia's latest series doesn't really does it? delia has always taught how to cook, but im doubting they can afford to buy the accompanying book.

If Natasha can't afford the book then perhaps she can watch the series on her flatscreen TV? Which as we all know cost a fraction of the price of a couple of books.

Edit: can we PLEASE do ourselves all a big favour and stop pretending this whole issue is about money and nothing else? Unemployed people today have far more disposable income, in real terms, than did most people who worked 60-hour weeks a few generations ago.