Juke

[massrock]

I keep thinking there's something there to do with that relationship between a certain kind of sentimental cheese and hard syncopated beats, or that hip-hop style appropriation of trash / cultural detritus (e.g. Evanescence). There's definitely a, dare I say it, 'nuum-o-logical aspect to why the Nate style tracks resonate with some UK dance music fans. And actually tbh I would be very surprised if that stuff isn't informed in some ways direct or otherwise by Jungle. Which might be slightly controversial, I don't know. Someone mentioned how Metal is a global culture, but House music and it's descendants has been at least as global since the 90s.



(Also can I just say that if someone has a lot of posts on a forum it could be because they have been involved from the beginning, and that there is more to the place than one single topic. Respect for communities works both ways, especially if you are looking to enlist people's help. Sorry, that comment was bugging me.)

 

[Amicose]

Glad things have got a bit more sensible around here. Also that Clent tune the footworkers are inspired by is pure nuts

But one last thing I wanted to address was this point:

My understanding of juke and footwork is that it doesn't cater to big communal parties, everyone facing the DJ, etc. It's for guys to dance in a circle against one another.

This is why I feel there isn't much of a difference between juke and footwork music as much as there is juke lovers and the footwork community. The world where people just footwork, can have parties up to 200-300 people in a room, just battling. As for juke fans, I've seen parties at size up to 3000 people. Until it's closing, DJ Chip used to host the Dolton Expo Center parties. Literally, 3000 people would show up every month and pay 15 bucks to get in. Chip made a shitload of untaxed cash.

Ok this seems like the distinction that we've been looking for. Is their any difference in the music played at the battles & the parties? Much battling going on at the larger parties? Cos my feeling listening to this music had always been that footworkers and the mad tom patterns had gone in the same direction at the time, and my imagination is having trouble imagining anyone dancing to without being very accomplished.

That Spinn track is fyah, btw. Also contains one of those jungle elements in the bass being the easiest thing to follow for much of the track

Fair point about diffusion of house as a global culture, but my suggestion was that early house was about jacking and dancing, subjects and vibes which spread quicker and less anxiously (no hip hop esque white kid realness fear) than innately local stuff like juke.

 

[Ory]

love that spinn

edit: ..who happens to be playing in stockholm (!) tomorrow night:

MAIN:

JAKES (UK)
L-WIZ
IRK
GENA
TRICKYKID

OUTDOOR:

DJ SEGA (US)
BIG DOPE P (FR)
DJ TAMIEL (US)
DJ SPINN (US)
MARCUS PRICE AKA BASUTBUDET
HENRIK HAUSHILDT

@ FABRIKEN, strandbergsgatan 51, 18år,

 

[alec.tron]

Since you asked for opinions about it specifically (I tend to go by: if I'm not excited about it, why go on about it...?), I'm not feeling the Spinn tune, there's been heaps of Spinn's stuff I really like though... but that one isn't doing much for me.
The Clent track in the same post on the other hand... great.
Also really looking forward to hear which T-Rell tune dave quam was talking about... the only T-Rell I could find from chicago has 2 tracks on his myspace, both hiphop & one of them autotuned to death...
c.

.eh. not much feet to see... but damn gurl, impressive ass frequency @ :38
I didn t think that's physically possible...

 

[hopper]

@ nnazem. The acid tune is at 2:30 on this video . Quite a lot of people on here were getting quite excited about it, think there was word that it was forthcoming on a Rashad release

 

[soul_pill]

That is Rashad - "Who Da Coldest"

 

[routes]

whatever it is it's frickin amazing!

 

[nnazem]

And actually tbh I would be very surprised if that stuff isn't informed in some ways direct or otherwise by Jungle. Which might be slightly controversial, I don't know. Someone mentioned how Metal is a global culture, but House music and it's descendants has been at least as global since the 90s.



(Also can I just say that if someone has a lot of posts on a forum it could be because they have been involved from the beginning, and that there is more to the place than one single topic. Respect for communities works both ways, especially if you are looking to enlist people's help. Sorry, that comment was bugging me.)

Knowing a lot of these guys, I don't know if they could honestly tell you the difference between jungle and drum n bass. I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but the construction of tracks were already going that way with what they were doing anyways. DJ Clent's 3rd Wurld is a perfect case in point. It has both the "footwork" elements that we all know, and it has the "juke" elements we all know so well. This stuff is the descendants of ghetto house.


And my bad on the diss to 5600 posts. It's just man, I realize there's just never going to be an end of responses to a man that dedicated to dissensus. I can clearly tell this man has participated in more than just this juke forum, but shit, it just seems like a never ending battle.

Next subject

Ok this seems like the distinction that we've been looking for. Is their any difference in the music played at the battles & the parties? Much battling going on at the larger parties? Cos my feeling listening to this music had always been that footworkers and the mad tom patterns had gone in the same direction at the time, and my imagination is having trouble imagining anyone dancing to without being very accomplished.

With huge juke parties, you will have people footworking. Like i mentioned before, a lot of this music came from the same producers, and the footworking scene came out of ghetto house, so people footworking to the party music at the big parties was expected. And yeah, you're absolutely right for bringing up that RP Boo track as something most people can't juke too, that shit is damn near strictly footworker material, haha. But thats mainly because RP Boo is a dj/producer all to his own that no one can really emulate. RP Boo is RP Boo, haha. However, the majority of time, I would say the biggest difference between the two is just how the tracks are mixed in, and the mood of the mix itself. You can literally have a 30 minute mix, use half of the same tracks, and have a completely different set dedicated to different people. Even with footwork tracks, you defintiely have people jumping for joy out of excitement. Look at 1:50 for example:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

And finally, with that Rashad acid track, I don't know if the acid beginning is the beginning to the actual Whose the Coldest Track, but I don't actually have this song in my hard drive, so I can't really tell ya. If Mike actually has the real version, which I think he does, then yeah, definitely take his word for it!

 

[massrock]

It doesn't matter about a Jungle influence or otherwise, except to say that it's a great thing that there's this possibility of a multi-directional conversation in electronic dance music, accelerated by the web. Some of it is to do with technology, but actually it's pretty much an inevitability, Jungle (and that includes d&b) being a resident part of the fabric, certainly by 1998 when the track you cite was released. As I say, direct or not. No big deal though, and certainly no diss.

This stuff is the descendants of ghetto house.

See, you can say that's what Jungle was as well.

(btw it seems I have a higher post/day ratio than mms. should i be embarrassed? admittedly most of those are stoopid one-liners. but is it 'dedication to dissensus' or is it an interest in the subjects of conversations that take place here and the people taking part in them? terrible thing, but sorry i got involved in that silly beef.)

 

[mms]

no battle?

 

[jimitheexploder]

Really dig that RP Boo Interview.

The mixtape is hot too, had it from a while back on here still, but nice one for the reminder.

Gotta love the passion you guys have for the sound too. I think there are some crossed wires in the thread though. I'm pretty sure a lot of the peeps here are just trying to get a handle on the sound from a UK perspective. We aint gonna have the same dance culture as you guys, we're gonna do what we usualy do with dance music over the ages be it home grown or otherwise, take it on board flip it and vibe off it and make it our own thing just like you did when you turned house into this fucked up drum machine, sample workout. We're still open to the history of it all, but we'll prob make or own too in this county. I mean we intersepted it at a diffrent point so we'll start vibing off it then and blending it with our culture, right now. Its something that will run alongside the current US knowledge. Just like Addison Groove and Girl Unit are new to you guys, Dj Rashad is to us, we're gonna run with it diffrently. Its not a diss to your history, its something else. Loads of us are more than happy to soak in the history from your area, it would be a pleasure to be honest...

So more tunes!

It's been buggin me, what is the tune that the DJ Clent Track 'Clent's CPU' samples? I sware I have it somewhere in my collection but cant find it at all!?! Its a sped up techno/electro track I sware...

 

[alec.tron]

...You can literally have a 30 minute mix, use half of the same tracks, and have a completely different set dedicated to different people. Even with footwork tracks, you defintiely have people jumping for joy out of excitement. Look at 1:50 for example:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
!

wikkid, thanks for posting. the first track sounds insane....
out to the girl killing it & the guys (especially the one with the blue milkcrate!) celebrating her (that's how it looks to me at least).
funny thing (comment on footwork by someone absoluteely clueless about it & it's history), it's good to see there are girls as well footwerking it, and even better to see she's actually adjusting to the track & taking in the rhythm & moving with certain elements (occasionally), which is what dancing was and should be on it's most basic/primal level imo. That's one thing I've been missing, or maybe better - wondering about why, when watching the footwork videos. Everyone just seems to go through their routines without paying much attention to the music, e.g. not using breakdowns/pauses as an element to build up tension through if they occur, but rather twerk along through slower parts or just wait/slowly shuffle along/warm-up till the manic toms set in again to start the next routine. Which then again might be just supported by some/most of the footwork tracsk being 'just' a layer of rhythm rather than having a (in absence of a better word in me head) 'song' structure.
I wonder if there ever was/is/will be a point where each footwork crew will play with their own Dj (at the 'small'ish battles), finetuning/choreograph the set/combination of tracks to the dancing and vice versa... as in arriving at the jamaicam/uk soundclash element (conscious or unconsciously...) & even taking it one step further.
And lastly, the way to stop dancing & non-chalantly turn around to walk away back to the home-turf on the other side of the circle definetly has become an artform...
ramble ramble.
c.

 

[mms]

It doesn't matter about a Jungle influence or otherwise, except to say that it's a great thing that there's this possibility of a multi-directional conversation in electronic dance music, accelerated by the web. Some of it is to do with technology, but actually it's pretty much an inevitability, Jungle (and that includes d&b) being a resident part of the fabric, certainly by 1998 when the track you cite was released. As I say, direct or not. No big deal though, and certainly no diss.



See, you can say that's what Jungle was as well.

i wouldn't say jungle is a descendant of ghetto house, ghetto house - or the stuff nnaseem is talking about here is a specific sound that grew out of chicago - esp on labels like dance mania, it kinda came out around the same time or slightly earlier than jungle, it's slightly slower than jungles bpms and doesn't really have breakbeats much, its all 808 and 909s and quite a lot of dirty lyrix.

Jungle is very different, could only have come out of uk with soundsystem culture as its foundation and hardcore, as it's predecessor, plus its breakbeats and basslines.
i do think footwork has parallels in some of the rhythm science and influences - ie both have elements of hip hop and flair for using out of place samples or funk soul samples etc, atmosphere is really a key thing too that both musics have.

 

[massrock]

I mean that you can say Jungle emerged from UK mutant house. Not that it is literally a descendent of that strain of Chicago ghetto house.

 

[mms]

I mean that you can say Jungle emerged from UK mutant house. Not that it is literally a descendent of that strain of Chicago ghetto house.

yeah but thts not quite right either
footwork comes directly from ghetto house - or juke you know you can still hear that really early cajmere track coffee pot - or perculator being sampled sometimes . Ghetto house was kinda chicago house sped up and more jacking, dirtier, ( it always makes me laugh that while chicago and detroit were playing beats at + 7 8 and quick mixing the music, the uk was treating it with so much reverence)

the other thing is jungle doesn't really come from uk mutant house, uk mutant house was really progressive house, jungle comes from hardcore - which was an almagam of uk productions and european, often belgian productions, and was all about breakbeats and big synth riffs etc, infact alot of the house heads properly hated it.

 

[massrock]

Can you take a metaphor?

It was a comparison about similar ways in which things develop and emerge. Maybe not that useful but it was a passing remark and if you choose to read it as something more literal that's up to you. Actually having said that, you could look at another comparison in the way parts of acid house and Brit-rave emerged from jazz-dance and rare groove scenes.

And yes, although this is OT at this point, you can totally say that Jungle came from 'mutant house', is mutant house. Whether it 'is' or 'isn't' of course depends on how you think about house music and what that means, or on how literal minded you are. Historically some 'house heads' may have hated it, of course some people will always hate something, especially something new, but other house heads understood it all as house music. And many people involved in hardcore and Jungle referred to it as part of house music. But no matter.

Honestly, maybe nnazem had your attitude on this thread pegged after all. There I was backing your viewpoint when you were saying that people will respond to and understand music how they will.

 

[mms]

Can you take a metaphor?

It was a comparison about similar ways in which things develop and emerge. Maybe not that useful but if you choose to read it as something more literal that's up to you. Actually having said that, you could look at another comparison in the way parts of acid house and Brit-rave emerged from jazz-dance scenes.

And yes, although this is OT at this point, you can totally say that Jungle came from 'mutant house', is mutant house. Whether it 'is' or 'isn't' depends on how you think about house music, or on how literal minded you are. Some 'house heads' may have hated it, but other house heads understood it all as house music. Many people involved in hardcore and Jungle referred to it as part of house music. But no matter.

Honestly, maybe nnazem had your attitude on this thread pegged after all. There I was backing your viewpoint when you were saying that people will respond to and understand music how they will.

Sorry but it just isn't a very good metaphor at all, compared to something nazeem was talking about that was very literal, while you're being very vague and your point wasn't really very easy to understand.

You know there really was a uk house music and jungle wasn't it to be fair, as i've simply explained. Jungle came from hardcore which isn't house music although some people 'might say it is' or it descends from it, which it kind of does, but quite far. Musically it's really very different in every way, if you played a 1989 trax record and a 1995 metaheadz track blind to someone, they would probably see them as distinct, while you could play a house track, a juke track and a footwork track and they could probably see a relationship, do you see what i mean, also hardcore>jungle - some of the same personel, chicago house>juke> footwork some of the same personel, there is an actual linage.

A better definition of mutant uk house was really progressive house, that's all, you could play a chicago track from 89 and a 92 prog house track and people would probably see a relationship there too.
There is really no need to start being insulting, its pathetic that people start to be immediately personal the minute you disagree with them on here now, esp if they can't explain their point well enough for it to be understood.

 

[wise]

Everyone just seems to go through their routines without paying much attention to the music,

I've been wondering about this too. It's particularly apparent in this clip that they aren't dancing directly to the music.
Track that they all go nuts too is great

 

[nnazem]

it's good to see there are girls as well footwerking it, and even better to see she's actually adjusting to the track & taking in the rhythm & moving with certain elements (occasionally), which is what dancing was and should be on it's most basic/primal level imo. That's one thing I've been missing, or maybe better - wondering about why, when watching the footwork videos. Everyone just seems to go through their routines without paying much attention to the music, e.g. not using breakdowns/pauses as an element to build up tension through if they occur.

thats actually the sign of a good footworker. Actually, the guy you referred to with the blue milk crate goes by the name of Que, he's 23, and ever since the age of about 19, has been considered a footwork legend. He knows how to hit things on point, he knows how to change things up as the beat changes, and use the toms, claps, snares, etc. The video I'm about to post is Que vs King Charles. King Charles obviously won this battle, but Que had not footworked in nearly a year, so his stamina was nowhere near where it was before he was on hiatus, as well as where he's at now. In any case, his first round in this video is absolutely fucking perfect. Everything is on beat, he hits moves right on point, that round alone is just genius! Literally, even with his next two rounds not really doing much, that first round hands down is one of the best routines ever out there, period.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

A lot of the guys from Creation do it as well, but they're not considered the best battle footworkers. They're more revered for their routines than anything else. Here's Basik Vs Steve-O, both pull off ridiculous moves, and its exactly where they hit the moves which make them the dancers they are.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

I wonder if there ever was/is/will be a point where each footwork crew will play with their own Dj (at the 'small'ish battles), finetuning/choreograph the set/combination of tracks to the dancing and vice versa... as in arriving at the jamaicam/uk soundclash element (conscious or unconsciously...) & even taking it one step further.

When someone's dance looks like its choreographed, it literally leaves a bad taste in the mouth for everyone there. Everything done at these battles is freestyled, it takes a lot more than just moving incredibly fast, you really have to feel the music and just dance without even thinking about what you're doing.

And a lot of these battles have people jumping in at random times, it's not just one side goes, then the next. I've seen shit where one side will go for damn near 5 turns before they let the other crew go. Trying to make order out of these battles, and making one side go then the other just takes away from the energy, and the essence of the battle. This stuff is just raw energy! and it just happens that way. i've seen battle go for 2 minutes and i've seen them go for 50 minutes! shit is ridiculous, but there's always energy.

and i have no clue about uk dnb & jungle culture, but i'm just saying, chicago juke/footwork is extremly localized. these guys will tell you every influence in the world to them, and i haven't heard one of em say anything about shy fx, unfortunately. the best proof I can offer is that their heaviest influences get sampled eventually, and I don't know of a single footwork/juke track that has any UK sample or riff. However, I completely agree with you that we should bridge the gap.

 

[massrock]

Sorry but it just isn't a very good metaphor at all, compared to something nazeem was talking about that was very literal, while you're being very vague and your point wasn't really very easy to understand.

It's a comparison, the important part to do with a progression and ways in which more 'hyper' forms can emerge, have emerged in post-disco-post-'house' music. I said 'you can say', so it's not like I'm demanding everyone see it that way or insisting that it's a be-all definition. I think I explained clearly and concisely in two sentences when you seemed to misunderstand that statement. Don't start talking about progressive house please.

You know there really was a uk house music and jungle wasn't it to be fair, as i've simply explained. Jungle came from hardcore which isn't house music although some people 'might say it is' or it descends from it, which it kind of does, but quite far. Musically it's really very different in every way, if you played a 1989 trax record and a 1995 metaheadz track blind to someone, they would probably see them as distinct, while you could play a house track, a juke track and a footwork track and they could probably see a relationship, do you see what i mean, also hardcore>jungle - some of the same personel, chicago house>juke> footwork some of the same personel, there is an actual linage.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to think of hardcore as UK mutant house, and as coming in part from house music in the broad sense. Also comparable to ghetto house in that it is roughage music. I don't see a problem with that. This doesn't mean that you have to think that is all it is, but it is even one way it was seen while it happened, you know. Of course this can be argued about endlessly. So hardcore has elements of EBM, etc. etc.

I also don't see that an idea of some imaginary person's blind impression is really any kind of reliable measure of the relationships between things. There are clearly identifiable shared elements though. House and Jungle are manifestly closer to each other than they each are to acoustic folk music for instance. While it seems to me that some Footwork tracks are pretty far abstracted from say '89 House. Some people say it's hard to remember the 'shock of Jungle' in retrospect, maybe it's useful to remember how it also happened as a progression. This all seems so obvious I don't know why I'm typing it.

A better definition of mutant uk house was really progressive house, that's all, you could play a chicago track from 89 and a 92 prog house track and people would probably see a relationship there too.

If that's what you think of, it doesn't make it a 'better definition', because it's not about a definition of 'mutant UK house' .

There is really no need to start being insulting, its pathetic that people start to be immediately personal the minute you disagree with them on here now, esp if they can't explain their point well enough for it to be understood.

You'll notice I only referred to comments on this thread, that's not really ad-hominem is it. And don't start on about incomprehensibility when often your posts on this forum are seriously lacking in punctuation or worse. Usually people just let that sort of thing go or make a generous effort to understand what someone is saying.

But, enough.