Modernism: where we need to return or what we need to leave behind?

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
mr tea: politically the modernists seemed to cover the spectrum: the Italian Futurists were fascists (in fact i would say they established the ideological foundations for Italian fascism), the Surrealists tended to be Marxists/Trotskyites, the Dadaists were cultural if not political anarchists, Mayachovsky and the Russians were Leninists. There doesn't seem to be a definitive modernist politics. If you saw the film Max (w John Cusack), it suggests that Nazism was kind of a radical modernist vision gone completely apeshit. I think there's actually something to that. Hitler as a theatrical performer. i don't know.

I'm by no means an expert on art history, but I read something someone on here linked to recently that said the Italian Futurists weren't really fascists, or even proto-fascists, but that aspects of their ideology were later incorporated into fascism. Perhaps a bit like how the Nazis co-opted Nietzsche (although with maybe less of an ideological leap involved, I dunno). Anyone got any good links about Futurism and fascism?

Re. Nazis and modernism - it's hard to say, I get the impression Nazism was very heterogeneous with respect to its relationship to modernism. At one level, it has in common with Marxism (or at least 'applied Marxism'/Leninism) the utopian notion that it was going to 'scientifically' bring about an ideal society; ideal for the right sort of people, anyway. But at the same time there was the 'volkish' aspect, harking back to a more-or-less fantastical ideal of an ancient Greater Germany, to say nothing of the obsession many Nazis had with the occult. Hitler himself was notably dismissive of the neo-paganism espoused by many of his own cabinet, on the basis that it had long ago been supplanted by Christianity and was therefore an 'evolutionary dead end' in cultural terms.

i should add, i would support any form of fascism - even the most egregious, murderous brand of fascism - controlled by the "intellegentsia," or whatever term you want to use.

Um, come again - am I missing something here? :slanted:
 
Last edited:

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
Um, come again - am I missing something here? :slanted:

heh that's what happens when you drink half a bottle of whiskey, try (unsuccessfully) to break off a relationship with an old friend, then go online to vent your frustration. my apologies. but the whole idea of something like a posthuman fascism kind of fascinates me, as silly and juvenile as it is ;)
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well I think only people who genuinely don't give a shit about spectator sports of any kind should rule the world. Seriously. :)
 

vimothy

yurp
then again nick land got into the posthuman fascism thing and look what happened to him. does he still teach at warwick?

Er, no. Nick has lived in Shanghai for years. I take it he is a 'fascist' according to your 'anyone I disagree with' definition of the term?
 
Last edited:

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
no according to his writings on Hyperstition. Not sure if he is trying to be ironic or what. It seems like he started from a Deleuzian perspective, kind of deconstructive politics based on nomadology and war machines, then went far to the right (brazen support for the Iraq war, denouncing artists/intellectuals/anyone involved in culture, etc.)
 

vimothy

yurp
Hmm -- I think your second sentence contradicts your first. Nick is a (sincere -- he has/d little time for Z, IIRC) fascist, as long as 'fascist' equals democratic, classical liberal who scorns pretentious cultural criticism.

Is everyone involved in Hyperstition a fascist, then, or just Nick?
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
Mr. Tea:

I'm by no means an expert on art history, but I read something someone on here linked to recently that said the Italian Futurists weren't really fascists, or even proto-fascists, but that aspects of their ideology were later incorporated into fascism.

do you mean this?

(i linked to it on page 16 of the Neo-Nazi forum hacked thread.)

off-topic:
i am listening atm to Reishi by Tura (Plaid): gosh i lurve this tune :)

off-topic 2: Nietzsche's brother-in-law topped himself at the end of a six-week drinking session
 

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
the Futurists influenced fascism, which was originally a liberal/corporatist party with populist psych warfare tactics. apologies if my wording was imprecise - Marinetti was only briefly affiliated with fascism, in 1919, but broke with Mussolini way before WWI. They didn't influence the Nazis in any way. The futurists supported modern warfare (which they considered beautiful), eugenics, technology, power, speed, muscle, machines, etc. It anticipated fascism, or started the parade so to speak.

Land has never scorched criticism or theory. He wrote an excellent book about Deleuze, and Hyperstition is very dense with postmodern theory (Reza Negarestani helped him develop the concept of hyperstitions), but the only reason i made disparaging remarks is 1) he was fired from Warwick, 2) got heavily into drugs (esp psychedelics - nothing really wrong with that), 3) but he still writes for academic journals (maybe Collapse and Pli). Mark Fisher has an excellent article about Nick Land and his personal failings. But I recommend everything Land has ever published, don't be mistaken. Even when he promotes net-centric warfare in the Middle East and criticizes liberal journalists for questioning the Bush administration's decision to stay in Iraq, etc. etc. I never got into the HP Lovecraft/hypersigil idea. It seems adolescent. But I've read a lot of Crowley and MP Hall, and follow AO Spare to an extent, but he focuses too much on it. The paper in Collapse #1 was pretty good: "Qabbala 101". Virulent Nihilism can be downloaded here: http://www.mediafire.com/?mgdlpmu1txx
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Mr. Tea:

do you mean this?

(i linked to it on page 16 of the Neo-Nazi forum hacked thread.)

Yep, that's the one. Although I just noticed this line:

"There was, finally, a Futurist Political Party by 1918, and F.T. Marinetti, the Futurist ringleader, stood as a Fascist parliamentary candidate in 1919"

I guess maybe 'fascist' in 1919 didn't necessarily mean the same thing it did in 1939?

off-topic 2: Nietzsche's brother-in-law topped himself at the end of a six-week drinking session

And wasn't it is his sister who was responsible to a large degree for Nietzsche's co-option by the Nazis? I know she was very anti-semetic and is regarded as a sort of proto-fascist/proto-Nazi.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
The Second Viennese school were quite keen on WWI, too, as a way of stopping the French being socially and musically degenerate and forcing them all to listen to Salome and stuff.

I got Alex Ross' The Rest is Noise for christmas, haven't read it yet but it looks like it's very interesting on the relationships between modernism / high culturalism and fascism. He tends to be generally receptive to the music but not always to the accompanying rubric, especially the Adorno / Stockhausen tradition of violently denouncing as 'fascist' any music that doesn't fit your strenuous theoretical specifications. Which in itself seems like a fair parallel between modernism and fascism...
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
Over a decade ago, I picked up an interesting-looking book on Bataille in the library of UCP Marjon and browsed a few pages while waiting to be interviewed for a postgraduate position they were, in the event, sensible enough not to award me.

I got as far as:

Not that this book makes any special pleading for itself, it has scratched about for needles in the most destitute gutters of the Earth, cold-turkey crawling on its knees, and begging the academy to pimp it ever deeper into abuse.

and thought, "oh, do come off it...". For years afterwards, I remembered the book (although not its title, or the name of its author) as something that had singularly appalled me - a truly egregious example of frustrated academic libido pouring itself into sensationalist prose...

An extraordinary lucidity, frosty and crisp in the blackness, but paralysed; lodged in some recess of the universe that clutches it like a snare. A wave of nausea is accompanied by a peculiarly insinuating headache, as if thought itself were copulating unreservedly with suffering. A damp coldness, close to fog, creeps through the open window. I laugh, delighted at the fate that has turned me into a reptile.

I put the book back on the shelf. My loss. I wasn't able to see how screamingly funny it was, or how intently serious. "Base sexuality, sickness,
religion, and intoxication entwine about each other in these texts, as withered creepers and roots might do as they cascaded into a chasm full of bats" - the simile extended just that little bit too far, into parody, into the gothic, performs - egregiously, appallingly - what it describes.

As I read Nick Land's The Thirst for Annihilation now, improperly for the first time, it's mediated for me by a series of texts by writers whom Land infected, of which Reza Negarestani's Cyclonopedia is only the most recent. I seem to have been exposed to a later, much-mutated, variant of the Landian mind-virus, having failed to contract it in the antiseptic confines of the UCP Marjon library: it's all over the place now. Of Land himself little seems to remain - he appears with almost minimal intensity in the theoretical hot zone he spawned, which seems fitting really. Perhaps his disappearance took the form of a lurch to the "right", the traditional "leftist" ritual of self-ejection from polite company. The crazy Qabbalism of his piece in the first Collapse indicates another line of flight - nobody wants to be that guy: the one who went too far, got too much into it, started believing in his own fantastifications. Whatever he is now, I doubt he's a fascist in any meaningful sense of the word...
 
Last edited:

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
where does modernism begin exactly? going by Walter Benjamin's definition (of modernism as a neural shock-response to urbanization), it starts with Baudelaire (early 1800's), passes to Rimbaud, Lautreamont, and the Symbolists (mid-late 19th C), then Jarry and the Decadents (Mirbaud, Huysmans; 1890's), and eventually into art (fauvism, cubism, Duchamp 1890-1910) and German expressionist poetry, German theatre (Strindberg), Ibsen, Joyce, Eliot, Pound, Wyndham Lewis, and the Dadaists (it exploded in the teens, even spilling into physics, music, and mathematics). But really it's impossible to pin down. and Russian Futurism had nothing to do with its Italian counterpart.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
As I read Nick Land's The Thirst for Annihilation now, improperly for the first time, it's mediated for me by a series of texts by writers whom Land infected, of which Reza Negarestani's Cyclonopedia is only the most recent. I seem to have been exposed to a later, much-mutated, variant of the Landian mind-virus, having failed to contract it in the antiseptic confines of the UCP Marjon library: it's all over the place now. Of Land himself little seems to remain - he appears with almost minimal intensity in the theoretical hot zone he spawned, which seems fitting really. Perhaps his disappearance took the form of a lurch to the "right", the traditional "leftist" ritual of self-ejection from polite company. The crazy Qabbalism of his piece in the first Collapse indicates another line of flight - nobody wants to be that guy: the one who went too far, got too much into it, started believing in his own fantastifications. Whatever he is now, I doubt he's a fascist in any meaningful sense of the word...

Nick Land always struck me as one of those people who really wants to write like he's very deeply damaged by drugs but he's actually one of those types who couldn't or wouldn't really be bothered to go there. So the very strained attempt at amphetamine logic or drug dreams, in the form of numerology or goth prose or whatever, rings a little phony. It's like the way a repressed uptight academic always wants to be part of what seems a hip subculture, Leary-style.

Of course for all I know Land really is that guy. But I know tons of those guys, some of them all too well, many only recently crawled out of some hole in Berkeley, and it's really not so cute when they talk about conspiracy theories and the Greek gods being based on Nephilim in a real deadpan.

Thing is there's a very long tradition of something like "Landism" in U.S. letters-- I don't know how much credit he can really take--so Landism neither altogether autochthonic to Land nor is it that shocking to anybody anymore.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
"Landism" is like Deleuze as read by an earnest 11-year-old boy who has an autistically extensive collection of comics and all kinds of energy to burn.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Virulent Nihilism can be downloaded here: http://www.mediafire.com/?mgdlpmu1txx

Now see I've always been partial to Bataille but I got about this far into the preface:

"Kant’s critical philosophy is the most elaborate fit of panic in the history of the Earth."

This kind of statement is why I'd rather be an anesthesiologist than a tenured professor.

Agent Nucleus said:
where does modernism begin exactly? going by Walter Benjamin's definition (of modernism as a neural shock-response to urbanization), it starts with Baudelaire (early 1800's), passes to Rimbaud, Lautreamont, and the Symbolists (mid-late 19th C), then Jarry and the Decadents (Mirbaud, Huysmans; 1890's), and eventually into art (fauvism, cubism, Duchamp 1890-1910) and German expressionist poetry, German theatre (Strindberg), Ibsen, Joyce, Eliot, Pound, Wyndham Lewis, and the Dadaists (it exploded in the teens, even spilling into physics, music, and mathematics).

Did you read this in the Arcades Project...?
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
"Landism" is like Deleuze as read by an earnest 11-year-old boy who has an autistically extensive collection of comics and all kinds of energy to burn.

TBH that seems to me to be the only way to get any sense out of Deleuze. Or at least no less valid a way than any of the others.
 

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
Did you read this in the Arcades Project...?


kind of- it's from his unpublished essays on Baudelaire and Edgar Alan Poe. They were written for the Arcades Project iirc, then altered and submitted to the Frankfurt School, which refused to publish them. Baudelaire = the flaneur, Poe = the detective. The essays are excellent. Benjamin imo is one of the most important 20th C literary critics, although that part of his body of work is often overlooked. A book was published recently with all the unpublished essays on Baudelaire. It's called "The Writer of Modern Life" if anyone is interested. Definitely worth reading- only 250 pages or so and Benjamin's style is really engaging.

I extended the lineage quite a bit based on what i've read in McLuhan (also a vastly underrated lit critic) and Theall. Susan Buck-Morss has written some excellent books/essays about Benjamin's treatment of neural shock and anesthesia you might be interested in. The essay "Aesthetics and Anaesthetics" is especially good:
 
Last edited:

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
TBH that seems to me to be the only way to get any sense out of Deleuze. Or at least no less valid a way than any of the others.

It's not that it doesn't make sense, it does. It's just unfortunate that at some point any/all "Deleuzian" readings of texts or anti-Oedipus tending scholarship became this sort of sad attempt by sane individuals to literally approximate schizophrenic thinking, and for some reason that I don't understand this version of schizophrenic thinking always takes on an aesthetic common to comic books and horror films (which I love, so I don't mind too much). For some reason the "lines of flight" always form an arrow that points straight to well-known, well-worn idioms rather than somewhere you'd never expect.

Comic books and horror films are based on an erotics of repression, adolescent fantasy, and scopophilia. Hardly what I think Deleuze had in mind when he thought of the best applications or goals for schizoanalysis.

Schizophrenics are interesting to D&G (esp G really) because the digital panopticon isn't mirrored in their psyches the way it is in, say, your average neurotic, there's no visual element to their sexuality that makes any sense to us, all of our efforts to reign them in and get them in line with the phallic order are bound to fail. This is why they're especially resistant to the economic powers that be, because they're much more polymorphous than the rest of us.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
kind of- it's from his unpublished essays on Baudelaire and Edgar Alan Poe. They were written for the Arcades Project iirc, then altered and submitted to the Frankfurt School, which refused to publish them. Baudelaire = the flaneur, Poe = the detective. The essays are excellent. Benjamin imo is one of the most important 20th C literary critics, although that part of his body of work is often overlooked. A book was published recently with all the unpublished essays on Baudelaire. It's called "The Writer of Modern Life" if anyone is interested. Definitely worth reading- only 250 pages or so and Benjamin's style is really engaging.

I extended the lineage quite a bit based on what i've read in McLuhan (also a vastly underrated lit critic) and Theall. Susan Buck-Morss has written some excellent books/essays about Benjamin's treatment of neural shock and anesthesia you might be interested in. The essay "Aesthetics and Anaesthetics" is especially good:


Yeah, I was probably assigned "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction" a dozen times as an undergrad. I've always liked WB.

Thnx for the essay, sounds good.

I'm not sure that he'd count as a modernist, but for years Huysmans was my favorite symbolist and À Rebours was my favorite novel.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: sus
Top