Is Ardkore Finally Dead?

[dominic]

but from a musical / semiotic / gnostic view the ardkore current travels back in time from that starting point as much as it travels forward from it. From this point of view Hardcore wasn't an anomaly but simply one of the expressions of the current . . . . And to me the ardkore current is still absolutely vital and you can hear it in the Red Alert rhythm as much as it is in Plasticman. As with the 93 current, if it's in you, you see it everywhere

so is it about a kind of energy or "current"? or is it about a linear succession of genres/scenes?

or is it about specific kinds of sounds -- which is what woebot's original post seemed to deal with, actual sounds?

 

[Grievous Angel]

or, it shares sonic characteristics, which i agree to an extent, but the ones that define hardcore itself, i think arent present enough to say they still exist (i think were clutching at straws to say that about anything since 96 at the latest).

I think this is a great test. To my ears the sonic signatures of the ardkore continumm apply to everything that' it's supposed to, the similarities are really obvious!

 

[Grievous Angel]

so which of these many scenes would you select as parts of the continuum?

Easy peasy! Here's a couple of examples: One connection back into industrial / euro would be Tackhead (of course they go right back to hiphop as well) but Revolting Cocks less so. Dancehall is probably more about 80s Brit fast chat (look ouit for the forthcoming mix from me and John Eden for evidence) than Dennis Brown. Just judgement innit (I guess it helps if you saw a lot of the precursors happen...).

as for shades of rhythm -- they're from manchester, correct?

Yeah, and just reinforces how viewing the ardkore continuum as solely the preserve of a few postcodes in east and south London is unnecessarily exclusive, I think.

 

[Pearsall]

what are newstyle and jumpstyle? i'm excitingly intrigued.

Never heard the term jumpstyle, but newstyle (which is no longer really that new) was the second wave of Dutch hardcore, slower than the original stuff, a bit more anthemic in terms of riffs.

If you want to hear some of it, go to http://www.sector-1.com/index.php?cPath=168&osCsid=ad0ad5233091f80b138f61034f5ed10b

I agree with Marc Bassnation that the focus on this thread seems to be solely on the London pirate radio thing, when if you look at UK scenes like hardcore/nu-nrg, dnb, and even the continuing hardcore scene itself the influence of early 90's hardcore is still starkly apparent. And the same is even more true in Europe, where hardstyle and newstyle are very clearly descended from the early 90's European hardcore that was as important in rave terms as the UK breakbeat stuff.

 

[Grievous Angel]

so is it about a kind of energy or "current"? or is it about a linear succession of genres/scenes?

Yeah, I think it's an energy that was invoked in hardcore in 90-92 which capitalised on and fed back into other scenes. That's then expressed through a variety of scenes that are more concurrent than they are linear. Coincidentally I was just on the phone talking about this with John Eden and he said scenes or tendencies are born, mutate into offshoots, and then reach back into the scenes they came from and (if I understood himn right) colonise them.

or is it about specific kinds of sounds -- which is what woebot's original post seemed to deal with, actual sounds?

Personally I think the sonic signatures are really clear, and ongoing.

 

[luka]

for silverdollar
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/thread.php?msgid=5515197
thread entitled, what is jumpstyle

uncle meme, you've well confused me there!
good thread though, i'd contribute if i had anything to add.

 

[dubplatestyle]

while i can understand gareth's (and other's) reluctance to hear sonic carryover from rave/jungle/ukg in grime, i have to agree with paul that i can clearly hear all of them still. for example:

- you heard mentasms in "garage rap" right up through (at least) early 2003, and i doubt we've heard the last of them (you hear them in us rap now, which means the feedback loop is only going to continue.)

- tracks like "i luv u", "tingz in boots", "raw 2 the core" and others clearly owe at least some of their beats to gabba/hardcore. (as well as the more butcher's block-y end of techstep.)

- sped-up vocals (it's really silly to pretend this is because they're all rap fans listening to kanye)

- "vocal science"

- bass (the way grime handles bass is totally sourced in jungle and ukg and has very little to do with us rap's either jazz-funk "live" bass or 808 bass...something like wonder's "what?" clearly owes some of that doomy oozing sound to stuff like "shadowboxing"...it seems really obvious to me that a lot of the grime MC's/producers go their start in that late-era dnb. wiley's octave jumping is pretty jump-up, if you ask me. and you still hear lots of plinky xylobass stuff.)

- a lot of the melodies seem designed, queerly, to be heard on ecstacy. the drugs have changed, but the sound is part of the collective memory...maybe they just like it.

- a lot of grime is just sheery nuttiness. that "because i'm dirty" track on the ruff sqwad mixtape is all bells, whistles, and dynamics, very acen/hyper-on.

 

[dubplatestyle]

i i think if anything slowing everything down and removing the impetus to seamless mixing has just highlighted (without wanting to get all "ghetto archipelago" on you) the connections between all these musics...you can now hear the sound of dancehall in the beats, miami bass snares, etc etc.

 

[Grievous Angel]

i i think if anything slowing everything down and removing the impetus to seamless mixing has just highlighted ... the connections between all these musics...you can now hear the sound of dancehall in the beats, miami bass snares, etc etc.

Oh, for real. You hear the bass on grime records and it's like, that's jungle, all the flavours represented from hardcore through to techstep on different records. The beats are either slowed down techstep or weired out 2step, though always with a twist, different grooves being applied in the sequencer.

And talk about the link between dancehall and grime swing (the strange syncopation you hear), and the actual beats that fulfil the grime blueprint... they're identical a lot of the time. (I still haven't heard the tune with Harry Toddler riding a grime rhythm...)

 

[Woebot]

You really gotta get away from this linear projection thing Matt, it's all about cycles, the ardkore continuum won't "end",

paul, you always make me laugh........

 

[Woebot]

BlissMan:
the econo-cultural substructure is still intact but the aesthetic superstructure is almost completely overhauled

I suspect this is exactly wrong.

.....again i'm in stiches...(confesses, a little drunk)

 

[Woebot]

there's a track on Grime 2, "CR7 Chamber" by digital mystikz, that is totally Sweet Exorcist/Unique 3, darkside bleep'n'bass

hmmm. i can see that "grimm" probably has traces of ardkore left in it. but (shoot me down if i'm wrong) isnt it essentially a bit of a throwback as a genre? soon to be superceeded?

always liked the idea of the ardkore ethos spilling over into other genres vis a vis bentley rhythm ace/steve gurley remixes/skam oddities but truly it feels like those days are now numbered.....

 

[Woebot]

but as someone who at the age of 16 saw jumping jack frost, dj sy, easygroove, kenny ken, simon bassline smith, mickey finn week in week out, and was a reguar at the orbit, donny warehouse et al circa 92-3 i do have some experience of this stuf

big it up.

 

[Woebot]

if you look at UK scenes like hardcore/nu-nrg, dnb, and even the continuing hardcore scene itself the influence of early 90's hardcore is still starkly apparent. And the same is even more true in Europe, where hardstyle and newstyle are very clearly descended from the early 90's European hardcore that was as important in rave terms as the UK breakbeat stuff.

good points sir.

 

[simon silverdollar]

- you heard mentasms in "garage rap" right up through (at least) early 2003, and i doubt we've heard the last of them (you hear them in us rap now, which means the feedback loop is only going to continue.)

.

mac 10 played a grime record with loads of mentasm sounds in a few weeks ago. i wish i knew who it was by, it was incredible.

 

[simon silverdollar]

Never heard the term jumpstyle, but newstyle (which is no longer really that new) was the second wave of Dutch hardcore, slower than the original stuff, a bit more anthemic in terms of riffs.

If you want to hear some of it, go to http://www.sector-1.com/index.php?cPath=168&osCsid=ad0ad5233091f80b138f61034f5ed10b

I agree with Marc Bassnation that the focus on this thread seems to be solely on the London pirate radio thing, when if you look at UK scenes like hardcore/nu-nrg, dnb, and even the continuing hardcore scene itself the influence of early 90's hardcore is still starkly apparent. And the same is even more true in Europe, where hardstyle and newstyle are very clearly descended from the early 90's European hardcore that was as important in rave terms as the UK breakbeat stuff.

what's the difference between hardstyle and newstyle? i can't really tell. they played a lot of hardstyle at raindance the other day i think. the MCs kept talking about it anyway. it was really fun. but when the drugs wore off it REALLY started to grate...


does anyone know how big the happy hardcore scene is in the UK? when i was at school in the north west, it was absolutely massive, with it being THE thing that (naughty) kids did at the weekend. if it's still even remotely that big (and i guess it might be, considering the huge number of cds Bonkers still puts out), i don't think that hardcore's even near dead. well, may be in london, but not in the uh 'provinces'.

 

[bassnation]

mac 10 played a grime record with loads of mentasm sounds in a few weeks ago. i wish i knew who it was by, it was incredible.

if you ever find out, let me know - i'd love to hear it, looking for tracks for a new mix i'm working on.

 

[Grievous Angel]

Oh, on the economics thing... yes, shops, radio, plates still exist but that doesn't mean the economic substructure is intact. I think it's been wrecked compared with five or ten years ago. Economic activity is far less. Saying the economic substructure is still intact suggests that it's as easy now to sell a record and make a living as it was before, and I don't think it is. It's not impossible -- it never is -- but I wouldn't fancy writing the business plan .

Should make for some better music then .

As to signs of life in the ardkore continuum being similar to "Stray Cats/Shakin Stevens/Polecats" -- LOL! I remember rock'n'roll fans going on about how "authentic" Shakin Stevens was, that he really knew how the originals worked. Didn't stop him being shit.

Thing is, I think these comparisons with the history of rock are interesting but I think it's the wrong paradigm to use. As Simon's hinted it's partly driven by a modernist appetite for "novelty".

No, I think the right way to look at it is to look at reggae and the endless recycling and renaissance that goes on there. Ardkore is like that, indeed is part of that.

On my world anyway .

 

[wonk_vitesse]

bangface

i'm intrigued that so called aardkore Raindance and Bangface can exist in the same city, one 'real', the other one drunk and ironic, but that's hoxton for you

 

[dominic]

Thing is, I think these comparisons with the history of rock are interesting but I think it's the wrong paradigm to use. As Simon's hinted it's partly driven by a modernist appetite for "novelty".

No, I think the right way to look at it is to look at reggae and the endless recycling and renaissance that goes on there. Ardkore is like that, indeed is part of that.

So are you suggesting that reggae represents a third way b/w modernist edge/intensity/power and postmodernist irony/weakness/gesture? -- cf. the Libertines thread & the James Murphy interview on Blissblog