Naomi Klein - The Shock Doctrine

[nomadthethird]

sure alright but we're talking about 2 different kinds of critical here - 1) the kind of conservative d-bags that would attack activists/ism & 2) a healthy skepticism for anyone claiming to represent anyone else. I just thinkg you're reading of the culture wars, which is surely a broad topic, is being simplified to fit your argument.

I appreciate the charges of delusion & conservatism, by the by.

I don't think you're conservative, I'm just saying.

Everything here is being simplified.

The point that you're missing is that the sort of people Vimothy and Josef K are attacking (yeah, that very same one-note wonder we've been over in several threads already) are the very people who are the most critical of representation of groups--anyone who dares to GASP read Marx or work at a university.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

"make a new thread I like trains"

Excellent suggestion!

alright then I will when I got home. get ready with your arguments about middle class white kid dropout shenanigans & post-industrial America or whatever.

"also - the culture wars were not a war about representation. it was a war between representations.

EDIT: Or was it both?

both & more I should think.

 

[josef k.]

Strange how what we call the "culture wars" (at least how I understand it) only really seemed to begin in - what - the eighties? the nineties? i mean, when America was in genuine unrest, as it was at certain points in the sixties, this was never referred as to the culture war. but then, it carried the seeds of it.

 

[nomadthethird]

There's also the not-so-subtextual subtext of the Infinite Thought/Alain de Botton correspondence at play here hovering in the shadows (or is it the foreground?) that is really informing this "discussion" of representationalism, Padraig.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The point that you're missing is that the sort of people Vimothy and Josef K are attacking (yeah, that very same one-note wonder we've been over in several threads already) are the very people who are the most critical of representation of groups--anyone who dares to GASP read Marx or work at a university.

but don't they both (sorry to assume here guys) read Marx & attend or work at universities or in some kind of related field?

also I'm skeptical that the people most critical of representation of groups are Marx-reading academics. surely the people being represented are most of the time?

 

[vimothy]

Strange how what we call the "culture wars" (at least how I understand it) only really seemed to begin in - what - the eighties? the nineties? i mean, when America was in genuine unrest, as it was at certain points in the sixties, this was never referred as to the culture war. but then, it carried the seeds of it.

Why is that?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

There's also the not-so-subtextual subtext of the Infinite Thought/Alain de Botton correspondence at play here hovering in the shadows (or is it the foreground?) that is really informing this "discussion" of representationalism.

I think you're imparting too much significance to this one example. what about the other examples that were brought up - immigrant Muslim communities in Britain or my own about the Irish in the U.S. in the mid-late 1800s?

 

[josef k.]

Another interesting counterpart - there was a certain kind of war which was about representation at roughly the same to "the culture wars" - which was the one to do with post-structuralism, and the infiltration of French theory into the academy, and - yes - pretentious crap.

 

[vimothy]

I mean, a "culture war" -- that's quite a strange phrase, when you think about it.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Strange how what we call the "culture wars" (at least how I understand it) only really seemed to begin in - what - the eighties? the nineties? i mean, when America was in genuine unrest, as it was at certain points in the sixties, this was never referred as to the culture war. but then, it carried the seeds of it.

nah really the 70s - Anita Bryant & that. I mean post-late 60s, the seeds as you said, but the culture wars started very soon thereafter - really the backlash against the late 60s + all those radical (& anti-radical) kids graduating & going into positions academic/media/govt/etc positions. I think a lot of those tensions were simmering under the surface for a long time before that tho, it just wasn't stuff you talked about in public or at least not in such a direct and/or vulgar manner.

 

[nomadthethird]

but don't they both (sorry to assume here guys) read Marx & attend or work at universities or in some kind of related field?

also I'm skeptical that the people most critical of representation of groups are Marx-reading academics. surely the people being represented are most of the time?

Maybe not *the* most but they sure are critical of it. My god did you go to college? We had fucking shitstorm after shitstorm after firing after resignation over these issues of "representation"...

Most people from what you might call an underclass are exhausted, go home and sit on the couch and watch reality TV and give no heed to their own political situation as it's related to their economic one. The ones who do, and there are some, of course, have no real voice in our society. The society of control, as Foucault so aptly describes, makes sure of that.

Should the post-Marxists stop fighting for every person to have voice in whatever capacity they might want to have one? Is it more important to leave everyone to their TV sets so you don't risk offending sensibilities?

 

[josef k.]

But at a certain point, didn't it start to get talked about in a very different way? and begin to take a very different form? Representatives emerged and institutionalized.

 

[nomadthethird]

But at a certain point, didn't it start to get talked about in a very different way? and begin to take a very different form? Representatives emerged and institutionalized.

They're still emerging. All the time.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I mean, a "culture war" -- that's quite a strange phrase, when you think about it.

politics spilling over into culture you know.

nomad, the more I think about it the more I see what you mean about represenation in the culture wars BUT I still think it's unfair to toss it all into one hat.

 

[vimothy]

A situationist response might be to look to historical forces, to the growth of this large "representational" space -- the mass media -- and its increasing importance in the post-WWII period. Perhaps the American culture wars are a function of a particular technology.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Maybe not *the* most but they sure are critical of it. My god did you go to college? We had fucking shitstorm after shitstorm after firing after resignation over these issues of "representation"...

no actually I never did. I've been thinking about it tho. gotta sort out the $ & that.

Most people from what you might call an underclass are exhausted, go home and sit on the couch and watch reality TV and give no heed to their own political situation as it's related to their economic one. The ones who do, and there are some, of course, have no real voice in our society. The society of control, as Foucault so aptly describes, makes sure of that.

Should the post-Marxists stop fighting for every person to have voice in whatever capacity they might want to have one? Is it more important to leave everyone to their TV sets so you don't risk offending sensibilities?

yeah I agree with all this but again again this is not what I'm saying. though you know perhaps the disconnect here is that I'm really not familiar with these kinds of intra-academic debates you guys go on about & so I'm not looking at it in the same context.

 

[vimothy]

I'm not sure that this is an intra-academic debate. At least, I hope it isn't.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

A situationist response might be to look to historical forces, to the growth of this large "representational" space -- the mass media -- and its increasing importance in the post-WWII period. Perhaps the American culture wars are a function of a particular technology.

I dunno, maybe in the sense that the competing ideologies can be amplified with much greater ease but really haven't "culture wars" been going since the Enlightenment? if perhaps under other names.

 

[josef k.]

When representatives institutional, the politics changed, and took on new complexities. Institutional complexities, psychological complexities, socio-economic complexity. The net result of the Civil Rights movement in America was to produce a black middle class and a widely accepted gay and lesbian community. These are positive gains. At the same time, a sizable percentage of America still remains disenfranchised. Mexican immigrants are one. The black urban poor are another. How is their plight best addressed? In what forms? What representations? And how to different representations bend the issue in different ways. It is clear that - for example, the question of Israel can translate into tenure disputes. But what is lost and gained in this process of translation?

 

[vimothy]

I guess it's like a war in some ways...?