Chris Woodhead= Cnut

mixed_biscuits

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I wasn't asking about the law as it stands, but as you'd like it, and whether that includes provisions for sex education.

I like the law as it stands (my guess is that the provision of harmless private lessons on obscure topics is currently allowed) - it's people who would ban private schools or regulate faith schools who would need to reform the relevant laws.
 
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mixed_biscuits

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M_b, I think you're getting a bit mixed up here (lol) - I'm not talking about lecturing an assembly hall full of primary pupils with sermons like "There is no God, and Darwin* is His prophet". I'm talking about not mentioning religion at all in schools, beyond totally objective, non-partisan RE lessons about the major world faiths ("This is what Christians believe, and this is what Muslims believe...") and in history lessons where relevant (the adoption of Christianity by Constantine, the various Cath/Prot argy-bargies, the current War On Terror etc.).

And I think you are playing devil's advocate with this relativity thing a bit. I mean, a liberal agnostic/atheist's view of the truth will surely be a bit different from that of a Taliban militiaman, a member of Westboro Baptist Church or for that matter a neo-Nazi: that's not to say that we'd be much better off having our children taught by one of those four hypothetical 'indoctrinators' than any of the other three, right?

*or Dawkins!

I don't mind this plan applying in state schools. It is deciding to regulate behaviour in private spheres, either of the individual or the community, that is problematic, as I find it hard to see how applying what we might think is best practice can be done in a consistent manner without our being dictatorial and oppressive.

The 'how should things be done best' debate applies to state schools - and I would be happy to participate in it in that case. As I've said, beyond legal concerns (which, of course, are themselves based on moral concerns), I should not be permitted to dictate what is taught in private schools ie. decide local policy against the wishes of a local community acting in an explicitly 'private' sphere.

Current laws would prevent the race hate preaching of neo-Nazis or ultra-fundamental religious groups, right?
 
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mixed_biscuits

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Poll results on the matter of private school abolition:

Debatewise: 86% - 14% NO
Studentroom: 76% - 24% NO
TheSite: 53% - 26% NO (19% want a 'great increase in scholarships')

http://debatewise.com/debates/134-the-private-education-system-should-be-abolished
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=717432&page=19
http://www.thesite.org/community/pollsandsurveys/dailypolls/Junepolls2006

Would be interesting to know of any others...

Eloquent blog post from an education researcher:

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/iadeghe/entry/private_vs_state/

How can this quality differential [between public and private schools] be resolved?

Firstly, we could abolish private schools all together, or introduce legislation which makes their financial state untenable e.g. by preventing such institutions from claiming charity status and receiving tax breaks. Demand for these schools exists as there is a deficiency in provision elsewhere. Their abolition is a gross manipulation of the market for education and would do nothing to raise the quality of existing schools. Quality will remain low at best and the system will need to absorb a huge number of new students.

Secondly, we could bring about convergence by simply improving state schools. If there were an easy solution to the problems faced, we would have seen its implementation years ago. Despite endless initiatives and growth in funding the quality gap persists. It’s said that bad policy breeds bad policy. Perhaps state provision places limits on how good the system can be, and efforts to improve it in its current state will be wholly ineffective. I reckon it’s impossible for the state to match services provided by schools relying on academic results for survival. The state system can provide below par services with no fear of demise in funding or demand. There are no real pressures to move towards greater efficiency and quality.

Finally, we could explore alternatives to state provision of education. I’m wary of saying we should leave the whole process to market forces as education is key if there is to be any social mobility whatsoever. Education is one of those things I’d hate to see people do without. I don’t think the current quality differential is so large that those within the system will be denied opportunities available to others in the long run.

Even if it’s possible to match the private sector, given the blatant diminishing returns to capital, the process of raising funds would simply create more serious problems elsewhere. Greater funding though tax inevitably creates negative incentives at the limit, and reduces the country’s economic competitiveness. That’s without considering the non-existent political will to inflict further tax increases on the population and the numerous other institutions which face fiscal problems such as the NHS. Monetary constraints therefore prevent progress beyond a certain point.

To summarise, the possibilities available for creating ‘equality of opportunity’ are severely flawed. We must accept that inequality is here to say even if it’s not ideal. We should not consider equality as a goal to be worked towards. There is a clear trade off between equality and overall quality, market responsiveness and competitiveness. Earnest efforts to create a state system equal to that of the private sector will prove ineffective and will create problems elsewhere. I have no faith whatsoever in the government’s ability to consciously design a system which works as well as one motivated by market forces. The government should be happy with an 'adequate' system. If it wants real quality, it's going about things the wrong way.

Elsewhere on her blog, with reference to Minneapolis' long-standing commitment to choice within the public school system, she says:

Again, the issue of vouchers / more choice within the state system choice isn’t one of public sector vs. private sector. Whether public or private, some schools are great, some average, some poor. Advocating more choice is to acknowledge that poor state schools exist and that under the status quo some have no choice but to attend them. They can certainly improve but while they’re trying to do so, why not make it easier for other parties (charities, businesses, parents, religious groups, etc.) to step in. While education secretaries promise imminent turnaround, the future of many students is being affected in a non-beneficial way. Our goal is good quality education. Who it's provided by is secondary. The quoted article illustrates that it’s not just well-to-do families who are willing to look into better alternatives for their children and new schools wouldn't cater soley children deemed wealthy and bright.
 
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poetix

we murder to dissect
My mum went to a purpose-built 60s comprehensive - Elliot in Roehampton, which I believe a certain William Bevan attended some decades later - which did pretty well by her, as a bookish, intellectually curious girl from a "decent" working class family.

One thing worth noting, though: the intake at the school was streamed. Even though the three streams shared the same buildings and facilities, were taught by some of the same teachers, and presumably mingled to some degree outside of the classroom, the system was still structured so that at age 11 you were assigned to a stream and by and large the expectation was that you would stay in that stream all the way through.

My mum's view, IIRC, was that this worked well for the upper stream, which was pushed harder academically, and for the lower stream, which got a certain amount of special attention. Ironically, considering the usual assumption that comprehensive education caters best for some undifferentiated mass of "average" pupils, it was the middle stream that tended to coast along.

Later on came the movement for "mixed-ability" classrooms, and for teaching methods appropriate to groups representing diverse stages of educational development and achievement. My gut feeling is that this is fantastically difficult to do well, although my dad taught in a very small primary school with only two classes, infant and junior, and of necessity had to teach in this sort of way.

If I had to design a school system to be implemented tomorrow, it would be comprehensive but open to streaming and setting as social and pedagogical requirements dictated - mixed-ability teaching would be encouraged where there was a good chance of its being done well, but not imposed where there was not. Teacher training would include critical pedagogy, and would continue past the diploma in the form of continuous formal and semi-formal education and critical reflection.

I would permit home education, and small independent faith-group (or unorthodox-pedagogical-experimentation group) education, but encourage the use of school facilities by such independent educators, and impose some (fairly minimal) legal requirements concerning curriculum. I would integrate the private system into the state system by making all private schools grant-maintained, limiting the grant available per pupil to that available to pupils in the existing state sector. I would however permit such schools a degree of independence from state control, but impose financial penalties for significant disparities in intake (measured by free school meals, for example).

Sex education would be subsumed under a more general training in ethics, citizenship and the care of the self: the curriculum would cover issues like assertiveness and depression, the effects on mood and behaviour of oxytocin, the use of contraceptives, sex work, eating disorders, homophobia and its sibling phobias, the cultural history of erotic representation and the reasons why so few rape prosecutions are successful.

At the high level, the overarching aim of my system would be to minimise institutionalised social segregation, whether by "ability" or by parental income, while permitting the development within the system of shared communities of practice: by all means let pupils with a common notion of what they need to learn and how be enabled to draw together and empowered to pursue that end collectively.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, great post poetix.

You've obviously been thinking harder than I have about the question of integrating independent and especially religious schools into an overall state education system, but I was already thinking along lines similar to yours about streaming or setting in education. Obviously it's only really practical in big-ish schools, but there's no reason why it can't be applied once you've got certain critical mass of pupils to allow the creation of streams or sets for each subject.

The high school I went to had about 1,200 or 1,300 students (years 9-11 plus a sixth form) and in the lower school, there was setting for English, Science, Maths and French. Additionally there was a second foreign language (German or Latin) for those in the top two sets for French. In my opinion there could have been setting for History, Geography and maybe Technology as well, but maybe that was just too much hassle to organise.

In general, I think it worked: pupils were educated at the level that most appropriately addressed their needs (in fact there were even some after-school special classes for those both at the very top and very bottom of the year, brain-wise) and at the same time, kids of the whole range of abilities and backgrounds got to mix during break times and in the those subjects where academic ability is less important or irrelevant, like art, music and PE. Art lessons were a total fucking joke at my school as I remember, though - I did drama for GCSE instead, which was a hoot.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Consider the exam. It offers questions. What is being questioned? The student body. The question is: How does the body respond? It generates sense, condensed into forms. The exam examines attitudes, and grades them according to their (institutional) merit. “This one is one of us...”
 

vimothy

yurp
The question of exams is an interesting one. At some level, their logic is self-defeating, at least from a school effectiveness / school improvement perspective. Tests measure the teacher's ability (to "teach to the test"), more so than the student's. And so there is a peculiar circularity to performance indicators -- the so-called "audit culture" -- where tests are not the sample but the whole of the pie: we can teach students to reel off formulae and procedural knowledge if it ticks some kind of box and gets our institution funding at a future date, but all the tests test is the ability to pass the test. It's not education. And it shouldn't be the sine qua non of the system.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Avital Ronell wrote a book called "The Test Drive" which I have on my shelf but haven't yet read... Anyone read it?
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Things that I disliked about testing at school/uni:

- Over-testing: I was lucky enough not to have had to suffer AS-Levels immediately after finishing GCSEs. Year 12 should have a break.
- Under-testing: S/Step etc should be made available to all. I wanted to take 3 S-Levels but could only do 2. Same with not being allowed to take exams early.
- Predictable tests: tests for which it is too easy to question-spot (= Finals)
- Modular tests are too piecemeal; continuous assessment I would imagine to be horrific (might require continuous effort and/or brown-nosing)
- Many students bottle tests
- Testing devalues material that is not perceived to be directly relevant to the exam
- Young children are not used to/are incapable of revising the material for themselves. This is why the run-up to KS2 SATs can become one protracted, teacher-led revision session
- I can imagine there being problems with the 'objectivity' of tests set by an institution primarily for its own purposes (re Vim's audit culture point)

There are some advantages to testing:

- Formative testing helps teachers to gear their lessons to the students' needs (for instance, at the start of each term I test the class on what I am about to teach them - it's surprising how much they can already know)
- Testing obliges the teacher to cover the whole curriculum and can influence teaching approaches positively (eg. the emphasis on mental maths in primary has forced teachers to integrate this into their lessons, on pain of dropping 1/5 of the marks in the SATs)
- Testing helps balance teacher assessment, which is subject to all kinds of subjective biases (which can return unfairly low assessments, as well as high ones)
- Testing obliges the student to be able to do many things concurrently; to synthesise what they have learnt over the year(s)
- Testing can help the not-as-personable or diligent to prove that they are capable, despite their teacher believing the contrary
- Well-written tests oblige students to think on their feet
- If a test is even moderately well-written, a student with deep conceptual understanding will beat one with superficial understanding (circular argument, the thrust being that tests can examine deeper understanding than mere procedure)

Re private school abolition, apparently the European Declaration on Human Rights guarantees the right to opt out of state education.
 
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Slothrop

Tight but Polite
The arse with the testing regime is that it's become the be-all and end-all of educational success, both for the students (who are encouraged to try to get the best grades with the minimum of work and not waste time with anything else) and for the schools (who need to get good grades to do well in league tables).

Can't suggest much of an alternative that isn't worse though, eg placing more of the university admissions procedure in the hands of the admissions tutors which might work but might just end up in the "right sort of people" situation we talked about upthread.

I've always had a sort of suspicion that as a society we're moving away from trusting people to make subjective statements ("the pupils in this school are being made happy, motivated, intelligent and self confident") in favour of extremely flawed but superficially measurable and objective ones ("the pupils in this school showed an n% improvement in sats scores between 11 and 15").
 

mixed_biscuits

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The arse with the testing regime is that it's become the be-all and end-all of educational success, both for the students (who are encouraged to try to get the best grades with the minimum of work and not waste time with anything else) and for the schools (who need to get good grades to do well in league tables).

Can't suggest much of an alternative that isn't worse though, eg placing more of the university admissions procedure in the hands of the admissions tutors which might work but might just end up in the "right sort of people" situation we talked about upthread.

I've always had a sort of suspicion that as a society we're moving away from trusting people to make subjective statements ("the pupils in this school are being made happy, motivated, intelligent and self confident") in favour of extremely flawed but superficially measurable and objective ones ("the pupils in this school showed an n% improvement in sats scores between 11 and 15").

Yeah, there's definitely a problem with releasing stats to the public, as a proper appreciation of their meaning would require all manner of footnotes. For a small school even one outlying student in a cohort can give a false impression of either all-round improvement or decline. Perhaps 'value-added' indicators could be used (tho' these have their own problems...)

The problem with trusting subjective statements is one that is evident in that of trusting 'objective' indicators such as test scores: they can be (and are) spun by the very people that would provide the more informal alternative. I guess that it is for this reason that parents are in favour of keeping the KS2 SATs: ultimately, they don't trust that a school would always choose to tell the truth rather than hedge to cover their own backs... They may be entirely happy with everything that the school has done, but it is the v.low-probability worst-case scenario that parents dread: that Johnny or Jeannie still can't read at the end of Yr 6 and the school has been hiding it from them all along...

For Uni admissions, I would use raw exam results (exam papers standardised nationally), personal statement/interview-through-questioning (exam conditions, on paper) and possibly some kind of abstract reasoning test, to flag up under-achieving geniuses. Possibly.
 
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bassnation

the abyss
So, you would ban private churches, seeing as they serve the same purpose as private faith schools in preaching 'bigotry'?

when it comes to educating children, a secular state takes an active role. i couldn't care less about people worshipping whatever sky gods they like providing that their beliefs do not lead to discrimination of others.
 

vimothy

yurp
Disagree on some counts, m_b. Conceptual understanding is not necessary. Certainly as far as maths is concerned, procedural knowledge is generally all that is taught, precisely because of the assessment system and its incentives. Of course, a student who understands more, ceteris paribus, will do better than one who doesn't. But that's obvious. The point is to examine what the effects of a culture of performativity are on teaching and learning.

And it isn't that the tests aren't objective, or that they are set by institutions for their own purposes, but that the tests don't really test anything. They are just a signal, whose function is to supply institutional sweeties. Imagine an institution (I'm thinking of a specific example, but one that I think is representative), an SFC, successful in the league tables: what does this imply WRT T&L for their maths A level programme? Strong institutional pressure is needed to maintain league table parity (of course). So the programme selects on the basis of probable success. No B at GCSE, no place on the programme. In terms of outcome, As and Bs are all that counts. So the whole of the programme revolves around what is on the exam. No conceptual understanding, only the transmission of procedural knowledge. How to pass the exam -- that's what the students learn. Mathematics qua mathematics is tangentially related at best. The teachers are very clear about this, all the way up to the HoD and the principal. Even the students pressure the teachers -- they don't want to fail their exams and cock up their uni applications.

And when they get to university, and expect to be able to deploy this knowledge, what then? Well, if the subject is "mathematically demanding" (e.g., STEM), then most programmes start by teaching their students maths. The maths that they didn't learn at college, because the college was too busy teaching them how to pass the A Level.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Disagree on some counts, m_b. Conceptual understanding is not necessary. Certainly as far as maths is concerned, procedural knowledge is generally all that is taught, precisely because of the assessment system and its incentives. Of course, a student who understands more, ceteris paribus, will do better than one who doesn't. But that's obvious. The point is to examine what the effects of a culture of performativity are on teaching and learning.

And it isn't that the tests aren't objective, or that they are set by institutions for their own purposes, but that the tests don't really test anything. They are just a signal, whose function is to supply institutional sweeties. Imagine an institution (I'm thinking of a specific example, but one that I think is representative), an SFC, successful in the league tables: what does this imply WRT T&L for their maths A level programme? Strong institutional pressure is needed to maintain league table parity (of course). So the programme selects on the basis of probable success. No B at GCSE, no place on the programme. In terms of outcome, As and Bs are all that counts. So the whole of the programme revolves around what is on the exam. No conceptual understanding, only the transmission of procedural knowledge. How to pass the exam -- that's what the students learn. Mathematics qua mathematics is tangentially related at best. The teachers are very clear about this, all the way up to the HoD and the principal. Even the students pressure the teachers -- they don't want to fail their exams and cock up their uni applications.

And when they get to university, and expect to be able to deploy this knowledge, what then? Well, if the subject is "mathematically demanding" (e.g., STEM), then most programmes start by teaching their students maths. The maths that they didn't learn at college, because the college was too busy teaching them how to pass the A Level.

Hmm yes, the procedural focus may persist through much of degree level too - a friend of mine lectures Maths at Leeds Uni and says that his students have not much more to do than put things through various sausage machines.

An emphasis on the procedural is also required to get students to over-perform too, to push a C or B student up a grade with the exam in sight. I recognise this from KS2, for sure.

Strong conceptual understanding reaps rewards - for one, students become accustomed to what knowing something more deeply actually feels like - but I guess that teaching has to be similarly configured throughout their education: one process-orientated prof too many and they might lose this desire.

What brings about a change of focus to mere process? = Exam pressures...

What can be done?* :(

Edit: *Universities should decide the content of GCSE/A-Level exams.
 
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vimothy

yurp
I don't think that the content of exams is the problem, but rather the fact of exams within the education system. Slow, student-centred learning is what promotes understanding -- making mistakes, understanding your mistakes...

Agree re universities and sausage machines. I took (and paid for, damn it) a couple of MSc modules this year, and one was basically an introduction to a software package. No conceptual knowledge at all. Also interesting in so far as the heterogeneity of the class mitigated against deep understanding. No one really wanted to know anything about statistics, other than what they had to know, and even maths teachers struggled with very basic statistical ideas. I can even recall sitting next to a head teacher who at one point asked me to explain what "correlation" meant.
 

mixed_biscuits

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I don't think that the content of exams is the problem, but rather the fact of exams within the education system.

My knee-jerk response would be to say 'So what's the alternative?' I'm guessing that different educational systems test to varying degrees; I wonder if there are any European countries that don't use any kind of formal examination at all.

The mere existence of exams should not dictate that teaching proceed at a particular pace. Examinations can be delayed or brought forward: for instance, students in France retake years, redoublent, until they are ready to take the Bac. There were noises made recently in the UK about allowing students to pass papers at different rates (or am I imagining this?)

I still like the idea of there being a test of one's general understanding of a subject, of having to bring everything to bear at one moment in time. There is symbolic meaning to the traditional examination too: the candidate must take what they have learnt and use it to survive on their own; this is character-building.
 
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