josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Interesting how this discourse has to fall back on the (collaborationist) falsity of what the Other believes in order to nourish itself... We must bring light to the people. Not a bad role you have cast yourself in. Interesting also that the only political practice which Badiovians seem in fact to be proposing (in the real) is a practice of academic-intellectual authority, geared around philosophical masters and knowledge. Significant finally that this discourse is staging itself in essentially defensive terms, despite its pretenses to positive programs. Like the defense of the category of "truths" - in the abstract, against an enemy specter presumed to be in denial.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
It'd be nice if they could get it right, what their "Other" actually thinks.

Something new is clearly in the works now. Capitalism was never very strong, and it's not even that old! It's not working. Global markets are too complex to allow for the regulation that's necessary in order to keep them strong. The level of severe earth overpopulation means that global markets can't sustain everyone anymore, and so we can't put our hope in them. The future is probably going to look very different from "parliamentary-capitalism" or market democracy, and I'm guessing it's not going to be globalized for much longer.

I would like things to change for the better in the future, it's just that I'm not so sure that state communism is the best choice. I think the world has changed too much for most of our easy answers to be adequate to building a better future. Advanced scientific solutions to the problem of global warming are probably the best we can do while in the meantime the entire push toward incessant economic "growth" and the culture it creates needs to end. No one group of people is going to be responsible for things changing, and a lot of the changes in the immediate future are going to be a matter of chance and disaster control.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Badiou saved from drowning...

It'd be nice if they could get it right, what their "Other" actually thinks.

The Other disappears from the theory... like tears in rain. What emerges instead is an illusory reverse image... everything "we" are for, "they" are against. The centrality of this fiction - upheld dogmatically - basically castrates any political energy or creativity which could emerge from the theory (which would demand, by the way, withdrawing rhetorical allegiance from it) in the service of rendering "everything we do consistent" (as the priest stated earlier)...

I am the only true Badiouvian. [winks]
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
The Other disappears from the theory... like tears in rain. What emerges instead is an illusory reverse image... everything "we" are for, "they" are against. The centrality of this fiction - upheld dogmatically - basically castrates any political energy or creativity which could emerge from the theory (which would demand, by the way, withdrawing rhetorical allegiance from it) in the service of rendering "everything we do consistent" (as the priest stated earlier)...

I am the only true Badiouvian. [winks]

It just seems to me to be a big: so what? So what if the "metaphysical" model Badiou lays out is correct? We'll never know for sure, it's not an article of truth. On its very own terms, it is irrelevant to change actually happening. Right out of the gate, by Badiou's own standards, reading Badiou and spending the vast majority of your free time learning set theory is a sorry excuse for a political activity.

So why not busy yourself building political networks and doing whatever you can that's good rather than trying like hell to steal enough thunder from a theory trend to make more money or angle for a more esteemed position in a clique?
 

vimothy

yurp
Is it actually an affront to "common sense" to say that there are truths - that is, that it's possible for a new political, artistic or scientific form to be created that is not reducible to a configuration of existing knowledge (and that this doesn't have to be a totalitarian disaster)?

But that is a leading question: what we actually want to know is whether the "truth" of revolutionary communism is equivalent to the truth of any other political, artistic or scientific form that we have designated as "truth".
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Y'know, I thought you two were actually going to agree for a minute.

It seemed like you were arguing about whether the trans-siberian railway requires effort, with Tea saying that of course it did, it took years of blood, sweat and tears to get it in place and Nomad saying that of course it doesn't, you just get in the train and sit back and you're there...

But I might be horribly misreading it there.

Something is going right over my head here. Or maybe under my feet, I'm not sure. I'm slightly regretting drinking as much as I did earlier as things seem to have got interesting (to me) here again.

I certainly agree with nomad when she says things like:

were it not for the scientific method which corrects and reins in thinking, science wouldn't work or be what it is.

but I don't think that implies "as little thinking as possible".

Maybe there's a distinction to be made here between what Kuhn calls "ordinary science" - working within an accepted paradigm to fill in gaps in our knowledge, to isolate this or that gene, cure this or that disease, discover this or that particle; and then the "extraordinary science", that precipitates paradigm shift. Is this what you're getting at, nomad? Like the former is more to do with rigorously following a programme, or something...well I think that only gets you so far, even in ordinary science.

Edit: slight x-post with poetix a page or two back.
 
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josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
I suspect that Nomad's earlier point about "as little thinking as possible" equals "as little metaphysics as possible."
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Reminds me of Richard Feynman's contempt for debate about physics that strayed into what he pronounced "philaawzophy".

I have a broad definition of thinking. Working out the optimal way to get home when the Tube is all fucked up at the weekend is thinking. Often quite hard thinking.
 

vimothy

yurp
Get pissed. I have often found that the tube is infinitely more enjoyable when one is totally pissed, if slightly more unpredictable.
 

vimothy

yurp
I am also fond of the way that fellow tube travellers often seem to display mild embarrassment at the very fact of their presence on the tube.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
But that is a leading question: what we actually want to know is whether the "truth" of revolutionary communism is equivalent to the truth of any other political, artistic or scientific form that we have designated as "truth".

The political sequences of revolutionary communism were arguably truths: they developed new subjective figures, figures of revolt and creative invention. These figures are by and large exhausted: we need some new ones. Someone is about to accuse me of supposing that it is up to egghead readers of abstruse academic philosophy to tell everybody else what these new figures are going to be. Actually, I'm pleased to say that I haven't a clue - and neither has anyone else.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Quick question, that I have to answer for somebody...what are the main/leading UK and US philosophy journals, guys?
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
The complaints against Badiou that have been raised on this thread mostly fall into two generic types. The first is that some variety of "academic philosophy", an elite leisure occupation, has had the temerity to propose a political programme; this is supremely dangerous, because the political programmes dreamed up by academic philosophers are invariably projections of intellectual authority, whose real purpose is to sustain the fantasy that what academic philosophers do and are is virtuous and significant. Badiou and "Badiouvians" are guilty of that most unpardonable offence against democratic materialism: telling others what to think.

The second is that what Badiou and "Badiouvians" have to offer is in fact so abstract, so void of consequence with respect to the real and urgent political issues that concern everybody (outside of the ivory towers in which academic philosophy is pursued), that its glaring and fatal flaw is that it cannot in any way be parlayed into a political programme. It is guilty of that second most dreadful offence against democratic materialism: irrelevance.

If one proposes a political programme, one has fallen for the fatal seductions of intellectual authority. If one does not propose a political programme, one is playing parlour games and wasting everybody's time. The world, meanwhile, retains its prerogative of ignoring or, if needs be, beating up egghead intellectuals who make a nuisance of themselves with their annoying ideas. (This is undoubtedly what the intellectuals are so riled up about in the first place - as everyone knows, the study of academic philosophy is a form of displaced vengeance against playground bullies).

With respect to this (no doubt intentionally) paralysing dichotomy, it is perhaps useful to step back and ask: what is a political programme? How does it unfold? At what moments in its development are theorisations and decisions involved, and to what do they pertain?

Badiou argues that the condition of politics in the "Western" nations is one of imposed, and normalised, disorientation. Our capacity, as citizens, to decide on matters of importance to us is alternately denied (all is opinion, there is no secure basis for a decision on any matter, we must resign ourselves to the somewhat wan dissensus of the "marketplace of ideas" and wait patiently for profit to tell us what to do) and subject to criminalising suspicion (those who seek to introduce the category of truth into the language of politics are, in Hayek's phrase, "totalitarians in our midst", no better than or different from terrorists or religious fanatics). Against this disorientation, he proposes that we look for "points", real issues on which it is possible to take a principled yes/no position.

For example: should the managerial imperative of testing and measurement dominate the way in which people actually work, in factories or in schools? The teachers who are preparing a strike in which they will refuse to administer standardised tests to pupils in UK schools assert that it should not: they are fed up with "teaching to the test", and declare that the value and meaning of their work as educators lies elsewhere. Badiou proposes, as one of the "points" around which we might organise, the primacy of workers' productive capacity over managerial necessity. Management is a second-order discipline, a co-ordinating function; when it becomes self-serving managerialism, which subordinates the work it co-ordinates to its own requirements (and fosters a cult of the charismatic manager, whose enrichment is only the just reward for "excellence"), then it is time to revive the slogans "there are workers in the factory" and "there are students in the university".

There are several other "points" that Badiou proposes (notably in his short book The Meaning of Sarkozy). Not everyone will agree that they are really as clear-cut as he asserts, and not everyone will take the position that he thinks we should take on them. But there is certainly a difference between disagreeing over whether or not this or that proposed "point" is really a point, and the systematic denial that any "point" could ever arise (the world being, in every particular, too complex and multivalent for any decision to be possible). Badiou's conception of politics entails that any real political sequence must treat of some points, must pass through a series of principled decisions (taken as they arise, rather than determined in advance according to criteria given by some philosophical Master) which determine its effectiveness. To deny the existence of such points, and to deny the possibility of a political truth-procedure, are one and the same thing.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
For example: should the managerial imperative of testing and measurement dominate the way in which people actually work, in factories or in schools? The teachers who are preparing a strike in which they will refuse to administer standardised tests to pupils in UK schools assert that it should not: they are fed up with "teaching to the test", and declare that the value and meaning of their work as educators lies elsewhere. Badiou proposes, as one of the "points" around which we might organise, the primacy of workers' productive capacity over managerial necessity. Management is a second-order discipline, a co-ordinating function; when it becomes self-serving managerialism, which subordinates the work it co-ordinates to its own requirements (and fosters a cult of the charismatic manager, whose enrichment is only the just reward for "excellence"), then it is time to revive the slogans "there are workers in the factory" and "there are students in the university".

There are several other "points" that Badiou proposes (notably in his short book The Meaning of Sarkozy). Not everyone will agree that they are really as clear-cut as he asserts, and not everyone will take the position that he thinks we should take on them. But there is certainly a difference between disagreeing over whether or not this or that proposed "point" is really a point, and the systematic denial that any "point" could ever arise (the world being, in every particular, too complex and multivalent for any decision to be possible).

this is fair comment, though i suspect your opening paragraph from the post (that i did not quote) may attract some rejoinder later ;)

so, can nobody help Craner out?!
(i can't, admittedly.)
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
The complaints against Badiou that have been raised on this thread mostly fall into two generic types. The first is that some variety of "academic philosophy", an elite leisure occupation, has had the temerity to propose a political programme; this is supremely dangerous, because the political programmes dreamed up by academic philosophers are invariably projections of intellectual authority, whose real purpose is to sustain the fantasy that what academic philosophers do and are is virtuous and significant. Badiou and "Badiouvians" are guilty of that most unpardonable offence against democratic materialism: telling others what to think.

The second is that what Badiou and "Badiouvians" have to offer is in fact so abstract, so void of consequence with respect to the real and urgent political issues that concern everybody (outside of the ivory towers in which academic philosophy is pursued), that its glaring and fatal flaw is that it cannot in any way be parlayed into a political programme. It is guilty of that second most dreadful offence against democratic materialism: irrelevance.

If one proposes a political programme, one has fallen for the fatal seductions of intellectual authority. If one does not propose a political programme, one is playing parlour games and wasting everybody's time. The world, meanwhile, retains its prerogative of ignoring or, if needs be, beating up egghead intellectuals who make a nuisance of themselves with their annoying ideas. (This is undoubtedly what the intellectuals are so riled up about in the first place - as everyone knows, the study of academic philosophy is a form of displaced vengeance against playground bullies).

With respect to this (no doubt intentionally) paralysing dichotomy, it is perhaps useful to step back and ask: what is a political programme? How does it unfold? At what moments in its development are theorisations and decisions involved, and to what do they pertain?

Badiou argues that the condition of politics in the "Western" nations is one of imposed, and normalised, disorientation. Our capacity, as citizens, to decide on matters of importance to us is alternately denied (all is opinion, there is no secure basis for a decision on any matter, we must resign ourselves to the somewhat wan dissensus of the "marketplace of ideas" and wait patiently for profit to tell us what to do) and subject to criminalising suspicion (those who seek to introduce the category of truth into the language of politics are, in Hayek's phrase, "totalitarians in our midst", no better than or different from terrorists or religious fanatics). Against this disorientation, he proposes that we look for "points", real issues on which it is possible to take a principled yes/no position.

For example: should the managerial imperative of testing and measurement dominate the way in which people actually work, in factories or in schools? The teachers who are preparing a strike in which they will refuse to administer standardised tests to pupils in UK schools assert that it should not: they are fed up with "teaching to the test", and declare that the value and meaning of their work as educators lies elsewhere. Badiou proposes, as one of the "points" around which we might organise, the primacy of workers' productive capacity over managerial necessity. Management is a second-order discipline, a co-ordinating function; when it becomes self-serving managerialism, which subordinates the work it co-ordinates to its own requirements (and fosters a cult of the charismatic manager, whose enrichment is only the just reward for "excellence"), then it is time to revive the slogans "there are workers in the factory" and "there are students in the university".

There are several other "points" that Badiou proposes (notably in his short book The Meaning of Sarkozy). Not everyone will agree that they are really as clear-cut as he asserts, and not everyone will take the position that he thinks we should take on them. But there is certainly a difference between disagreeing over whether or not this or that proposed "point" is really a point, and the systematic denial that any "point" could ever arise (the world being, in every particular, too complex and multivalent for any decision to be possible). Badiou's conception of politics entails that any real political sequence must treat of some points, must pass through a series of principled decisions (taken as they arise, rather than determined in advance according to criteria given by some philosophical Master) which determine its effectiveness. To deny the existence of such points, and to deny the possibility of a political truth-procedure, are one and the same thing.


Probably I need to read this over for a little longer to fully adsorb its significance, but I would have to say that at the moment I really fail to see the connection between the first half of the post and the second? Are you actually claiming that only those who, knowingly or unknowingly, are in agreement with Badiou's recent ideas are capable of and interested in making decisions of political principle? That's just patently incorrect, we as people are all making concrete choices like this every day. I feel that you're dangerously overestimating both the level of disconnection from politics of the average citizen, and the degree to which the market has replaced democratic government as the engine of political change. Both of these are important problems, for sure, but neither make up anything like the full picture.
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
Or to put it in a shorter way, Josef's assertion that the Badiouvian discourse relies on the desire to educate an implied Other who has given up on the capacity to think about or imagine chance seems sadly accurate. My wager is that almost no one is as close to being 'out cold' as you seem to imagine.
 
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