How dodgy is soy?

[padraig (u.s.)]

It's essentially an eating disorder.

bollocks. just utter garbage, really. I was vegan for 10+ years & suffered no ill effects, physical or mental. in fact at various points while I was vegan I; ran cross-country & played other sports competitively, did serious weight training, trained martial arts 4-5 times a week, did construction jobs requiring heavy manual labor day after day, etc. the only supplement I ever took was B-12 tablets.

it is not based "primarily on vegetables". that is a gross mischaracterization; legumes, nuts & nut butters, seeds, grains, fruit, etc. further, as w/any category of food, it is dependent on what vegetables (& legumes, nuts, etc.) one what eats. of course being vegan doesn't guarantee health - there are plenty of junk food vegans, just like anything. but if you do it right it is certainly feasible.

I'm sorry for your troubles w/hypothyroidism etc. but I reckon all your bitterness is badly misplaced. I have to chuckle at "eating disorder" tho.

Do Americans eat only high saturated fat red meat?

no, they also eat tons of shitty refined carbohydrates. and all kinds of junk food fill with high-fructose corn syrup & ungodly amounts of sodium & so on. which are certainly worse than the red meat, tho that's not helping any either.

just out of curiosity - & given that you cited him like 5 times - your only source is this Ray Peat bloke? oh & a scientific study from 1991?

The world's oldest man until his death at 113 few weeks ago Tomoji Tanabe insisted on drinking a glass of milk a day.

yes, clearly this is an effective argument in favor of milk. yunno, my great-uncle who lived to be 94 smoked 2 packs a day for 60 years. clearly we should all start smoking.

 

[Guilhèm de Peitieus]

My opinion. Just out of interest, why are you no longer a vegan? If for 10 years you suffered no ill effects, and, presumably you still agree with the environmental/moral argument? Do you feel healthier on your current diet?

re: Ray Peat, no not my only source, I just think he is unusually eloquent for a scientist (rather than a 'nutritionist'..) in this field, and communicates a profound understanding of how the body works as a system on the cellular level, which most people writing about nutrition do not. This makes his extensive heterodoxy all the more credible. All his stuff is referenced by peer-reviewed studies. I know from personal experience that his ideas work in vivo- he advised me on how to correct endocrine/sleep issues I was having, for free (I admire his ethics, too) Anyone at all interested in scientific nutrition, and the politics of science, should read some of his stuff. As well as the pieces i linked to before, his ideas about water, salt, sugar, coffee/caffeine, iron, diet and intelligence/creativity etc. are all interesting. As is 'Can art instruct science? William Blake as biological visionary' [http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/william-blake.shtml]

I meant to be flippant citing the world's oldest man. I don't think milk is the key to long or healthy life, so long as you have an alternative source of some animal protein and saturated fat, but I also think it is quite clearly not unhealthy. Where are the centenarian vegans, though? Where, for that matter, are any society in history who have ever eaten exclusively vegan? Are modern vegans more principled than any people before, or just more foolish? As either a consciously ascetic, abegnatory moral decision, or as an counter-cultural controversialist statement, I can accept its value. But it could never be a healthy diet for life, for everyone, which is what PETA etc. are arguing for.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Just out of interest, why are you no longer a vegan? If for 10 years you suffered no ill effects, and, presumably you still agree with the environmental/moral argument? Do you feel healthier on your current diet?

nah it's cos I no longer have ethical problems w/killing & eating animals like I did when I was 14 & religiously memorizing Conflict lyrics. tho certainly I'm no fan of the way that most animals we eat are treated, nor of the practices of factory farming. the "environmental" argument for veganism was always rather dubious & one I never bought into (tho certainly it's a no-brainer to see that using enormous swathes of land to raise cattle is terribly inefficient).

do I "feel healthier"? no, not really. the one noticeable difference is that it's been relatively easier to build lean muscle mass, tho of course that's a moot point regardless of diet if you're not putting in the hours at the gym. there are in fact vegan bodybuilders (tbc I'm not into bodybuilding but general strength & fitness).

Where are the centenarian vegans, though? Where, for that matter, are any society in history who have ever eaten exclusively vegan? Are modern vegans more principled than any people before, or just more foolish? As either a consciously ascetic, abegnatory moral decision, or as an counter-cultural controversialist statement, I can accept its value. But it could never be a healthy diet for life, for everyone, which is what PETA etc. are arguing for.

I think you're confusing what I said. I merely said that veganism was feasible. & not feasible for everyone, clearly, tho neither is dairy given the absurdly high % of lactose intolerant people in some parts of the world. I've never said or thought that everyone could or should be vegan. you're confusing me with an advocate for veganism. who's saying vegans are more principled? perhaps you should direct your arguments at them? I just think calling veganism an "eating disorder" is bullshit. that bit about centenarians is bullshit too if you're being flip or not. what % of the total pop. live to 100?

the real problem lies w/people who go vegan for one of the 2 reasons you cite & fail to educate themselves on the health side of things. it sounds like that's what you did actually.

 

[owengriffiths]

Given that Soy is such a major crop, is generally GM, and humankind have had centuries to perfect it's use... why is tofu so expensive? You'd think there'd be more money to be made by marketing it to a wider audience (though I understand that other soy products like the milk is sort of mainstream now)

 

[zhao]

Given that Soy is such a major crop, is generally GM, and humankind have had centuries to perfect it's use... why is tofu so expensive? You'd think there'd be more money to be made by marketing it to a wider audience (though I understand that other soy products like the milk is sort of mainstream now)

i imagine the relative high price of tofu is dictated by the meat and dairy dominated market, and/or just a lack of awareness and popularity.

as members of this very board proves, there are still a lot of people with the false idea that Tofu tastes bad, or is not "real food", all simply because they don't know how to cook it right and/or are ignorant of it's nutritious advantages.

 

[owengriffiths]

as members of this very board proves, there are still a lot of people with the false idea that Tofu tastes bad, or is not "real food", all simply because they don't know how to cook it right and/or are ignorant of it's nutritious advantages.

To be fair I find it very dificult to cook myself, deep frying with flour seems to be the only way the outside & inside is cooked through properly. The basil version of this product is particularly nice and should sell many on to the idea that tofu has a lot of potential. Great pesto taste without the cheese

 

[zhao]

To be fair I find it very dificult to cook myself, deep frying with flour seems to be the only way the outside & inside is cooked through properly.

world's easiest tofu recipe: add slices to boiling water, prepare sauce by mixing soy sauce with peanut butter, take tofu out after 5/10 minutes, and eat with sauce over rice.

i just had it for lunch. great.

 

[nomadthethird]

I really love Age Tofu from most decent Japanese restaurants...

Tofu's only disappointing and weird if you're expecting it to be a meat stand-in or substitute. If you're enjoying it on its own merits it's good, there are a million ways to prepare it, most of them involve vegetables tho, instead of like corn syrup sauce.

 

[nomadthethird]

if you're looking for a diet to label 'unnatural', veganism is it. It's essentially an eating disorder.

Veganism is still considered by many psychologists to be an eating disorder, simply because of the amount of time and energy that it requires of its adherents to maintain as a lifestyle.

I know that's controversial but medically any diet that takes up more than a certain percentage of a person's overall time in planning and preparation is considered an eating disorder.

Edit: I don't know what the hell you're talking about with "toxins" in vegetables, though...that sounds silly.

 

[Sick Boy]

Originally Posted by Guilhèm de Peitieus
The world's oldest man until his death at 113 few weeks ago Tomoji Tanabe insisted on drinking a glass of milk a day.
----

yes, clearly this is an effective argument in favor of milk. yunno, my great-uncle who lived to be 94 smoked 2 packs a day for 60 years. clearly we should all start smoking.

Really the question here is who fuckin' wants to live to be 113 anyway?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Veganism is still considered by many psychologists to be an eating disorder, simply because of the amount of time and energy that it requires of its adherents to maintain as a lifestyle.

I know that's controversial but medically any diet that takes up more than a certain percentage of a person's overall time in planning and preparation is considered an eating disorder.

homosexuality was officially considered a mental disorder until the 1973.

I understand it's not your argument but I find the idea that the definition of a mental disorder can be governed by the amount of time one puts into something to be beyond ludicrous. aside from which, how exactly do they determine how much time & energy the average vegan puts into planning? it's not "controversial", it's just grossly stupid. at least GDP's arguments were put forth on nutritional grounds. thankfully most people don't take psychology - as a profession, at least - or psychologists very seriously.

 

[owengriffiths]

Tofu's only disappointing and weird if you're expecting it to be a meat stand-in or substitute.

I'm not a vegetarian myself but see the merits in limiting animal slaughter & suffering. But I think the likes of PETA make veganism a laughing stock when they say shit like "eating meat is silly when soy alternatives taste just the same". It's fucking idiotic to pretend a handful of scheese products are a quality alternative to a whole cheese shop, and in my opinion lying like this is counter effective. Many meat eaters already think vegans aim to punish themselves, theres no need to encourage that belief.

 

[zhao]

Tofu's only disappointing and weird if you're expecting it to be a meat stand-in or substitute.

unless you are at one of those specialty "fake meat" vegetarian chinese restaurants, where you order Bei Jing Duck, and Fried Pork Slices with Spinnach, and Baked Cod, and Beef Noodles, and sometimes i really can not tell the difference. and with the dishes that i can, i don't care because it's fucking delicious like the normal dish with meat.

 

[Mr. Tea]

What is 'kimchi', exactly? I've got some Korean 'fake meat' dumplings in the freezer that have this stuff in them - doesn't taste all that much like meat but it's quite nice all the same. They're good doused in really thick dark soy and a dash of toasted sesame oil. Mmm, might go and have some now actually.

 

[luka]

mostly fermented cabbage

 

[Mr. Tea]

mostly fermented cabbage

Well it tastes a lot better than it sounds like it has any right to, if you see what I mean.

 

[Pestario]

unless you are at one of those specialty "fake meat" vegetarian chinese restaurants, where you order Bei Jing Duck, and Fried Pork Slices with Spinnach, and Baked Cod, and Beef Noodles, and sometimes i really can not tell the difference. and with the dishes that i can, i don't care because it's fucking delicious like the normal dish with meat.

I love those restaurants, especially the ones which serve the fake chicken in cute little crumbed drumstick shapes and the fish in cartoon fish shapes etc.

 

[nomadthethird]

Disordered eating is disordered eating, this can happen to anyone across the dietary spectrum. It's not healthy to have to spend an excessive amount of your day thinking about your next meal and planning your time around what you'll be eating.

Personally, I think veganism is only feasible, easy and therefore mentally supremely healthy for people who make a shit ton of money. I think this because I went to a school that was around 50% vegan, and guess what? I could never have afforded to do that, only the rich kids could have.

End of discussion. I feel sorry for the ignoramuses who don't "take psychology seriously", as I do for the rest of the types who "don't trust them thurr doctors"...sad.

unless you are at one of those specialty "fake meat" vegetarian chinese restaurants, where you order Bei Jing Duck, and Fried Pork Slices with Spinnach, and Baked Cod, and Beef Noodles, and sometimes i really can not tell the difference. and with the dishes that i can, i don't care because it's fucking delicious like the normal dish with meat.

I love duck, but I can't imagine that tofu duck is any good...but I'm sure you're right.

Kimchi probably tastes good, but lord does it smell so horrible. Getting trapped on the subway with someone who is carrying it is like torture. It smells like trench foot.

 

[nomadthethird]

homosexuality was officially considered a mental disorder until the 1973.

This isn't true, either.

There was a version of the DSM that still listed homosexuality as a "paraphilia" until 1973. A paraphilia is not a "mental disorder", it's a fetish.

 

[zhao]

What is 'kimchi', exactly?

everything in korea is made with kimchi. houses, cars, pianos...