Iraq - Still, In Fact, Going On

craner

craner

Beast of Burden
shakahislop said:
What comes through in this book is how scared and worried the lads making policy were. I'd almost say scarred. 9/11 really made them see monsters everywhere. I hadn't appreciated that they were genuinely worried about al qaeda getting hold of chemical weapons from the Iraqi government, or thier perception of saddam hussein being that that would be the kind of thing he would do.

The other thing that jumps out is the extent to which Bush and Blair saw the world in strong moral terms. That feels impossible now in the anglo world.
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Are you ever going to tell us what this book is called or is it a secret?
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
shakahislop said:
it's called Confronting Saddam Hussein
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I know about this one. For us civvies it’s not published until May, but I am going to read it.

The other important one coming out this year is Iraq Against the World by Samuel Helfont which draws upon all the remaining Ba’ath party archives.
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
It may well have been in line with their morality, but the idea that they were doing the right thing is patently ridiculous, as is the suggestion that there was serious suspicion of Iraq passing on weapons the US knew for a fact they didn't have - to the point where they knowingly fabricated evidence of their existence at the UN. Its paper thin sophistry.

What is the name of the court historian who penned this hagiography?
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
droid said:
It may well have been in line with their morality, but the idea that they were doing the right thing is patently ridiculous, as is the suggestion that there was serious suspicion of Iraq passing on weapons the US knew for a fact they didn't have - to the point where they knowingly fabricated evidence of their existence at the UN.
What is the name of the court historian who penned this hagiography?
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Well hang on - "they did the right thing" and "they did what they thought was the right thing" mean different things, don't they?

shakahislop said:
i think at the time they both really believed that they were doing the right thing, something that was in line with their morality.
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droid

droid

Well-known member
Yeah, and despite Blair's messianic delusions, neither is true. It is charitable to suggest that Bush was even capable of moral consideration.

We lived through this. Every lie and scandal on the way to this debacle was analysed and catalogued in great detail as part of the largest anti-war movement in history. Im sure you remember.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't claim to have a privileged access to the inside of Tony Blair's head, but if you agree that he had (has?) a messiah complex, then that implies that he thought his decision was justified, doesn't it? Which doesn't, in itself, form a defence of that decision, or of the deception over the WMDs.
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
If you manufacture evidence to create a threat, you cant then claim (even in your own head) that it is morally correct to use force to counter the threat that you manufactured. It's oxymoronic.

Ive no doubt Blair has a thousand justifications. Every war criminal has a dossier of excuses. Im sure you could argue that Putin thinks he's doing the right thing, and no doubt the Russian Leffler is on the case right now.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
droid said:
Ive no doubt Blair has a thousand justifications. Every war criminal has a dossier of excuses. Im sure you could argue that Putin thinks he's doing the right thing, and no doubt the Russian Leffler is on the case right now.
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Right, and you can take this argument all the way up to a certain someone whose name starts with H...
 
shakahislop

shakahislop

Well-known member
droid said:
It may well have been in line with their morality, but the idea that they were doing the right thing is patently ridiculous, as is the suggestion that there was serious suspicion of Iraq passing on weapons the US knew for a fact they didn't have - to the point where they knowingly fabricated evidence of their existence at the UN. Its paper thin sophistry.

What is the name of the court historian who penned this hagiography?
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yeah i think you're right about all of that, including that the guy who wrote this is quite embedded in the us foreign policy-academia world.

what i'm saying is that they (bush, blair and some of the other people around them) thought they were doing the right thing, and that accounts for part of the decision-making. i'm not saying that they were right. beyond non-existent WMD they wanted saddam gone for a lot of different reasons, some of which have a moral edge.

us foreign policy is obviously one of the main forces structuring the world, even if its weaker now than it was before, it goes without saying that its a force that has been very destructive, it is interesting for me that one part of what's going on is that the people who make decisions conceive it in ethical terms rather than hard-nosed ones. i think both blair and bush were in a certain way quite idealistic.
 
shakahislop

shakahislop

Well-known member
@craner have you been to iraq before? from what i can tell its finally just about safe enough to travel around non-kurdistan iraq now. i had a flight booked in jan but had to cancel it.
 
WashYourHands

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
shakahislop said:
what i'm saying is that they (bush, blair and some of the other people around them) thought they were doing the right thing, and that accounts for part of the decision-making.
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can’t agree, they did it for exploitative gains because no-one was going to stop them, out of hubris and maniacal interventionism ie regime change

c’mon Shak, you think these cunts had a moral compass in these instances?
 
sufi

sufi

lala
this

declassifieduk.org

When journalists act as state propagandists

In advance of the invasion of Iraq 20 years ago, the UK media parroted government lies and fabrications uncritically and became an enthusiastic part of the state’s propaganda machine. An inquiry into British reporting of the Iraq war is well past due.
declassifieduk.org declassifieduk.org

just popped up

peter oborne is a good egg
with a massive axe to grind against the msm

he cites this LeCarréesque contemporaneous piece:

 
shakahislop

shakahislop

Well-known member
craner said:
No, I haven't. Why did you cancel in Jan?
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i had stuff to do in new york basically so i had to come back here instead of going to iraq. i've been to kurdistan before but not the rest of it because it's been impossible basically since i was an adult but now it's finally fairly easy i think. was planning to go to najaf and karbala which is really a long held dream, and was going to spend a bit of time in mosul and baghdad as well, probably get the train down to basra and then cross over to kuwait. that was the plan anyway. hopefully it will happen one day.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
sufi said:
this

declassifieduk.org

When journalists act as state propagandists

In advance of the invasion of Iraq 20 years ago, the UK media parroted government lies and fabrications uncritically and became an enthusiastic part of the state’s propaganda machine. An inquiry into British reporting of the Iraq war is well past due.
declassifieduk.org declassifieduk.org

just popped up

peter oborne is a good egg
with a massive axe to grind against the msm

he cites this LeCarréesque contemporaneous piece:

Click to expand...
It's untrue that the Guardian, at least, took an unequivocally pro-government line or never questioned the WMD dossier. For example it published this six weeks before the start of the invasion:

www.theguardian.com

Downing St admits blunder on Iraq dossier

Plagiarism row casts shadow over No 10's case against Saddam.
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
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