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Woebot
14-04-2005, 03:43 PM
I came across this really funny thread on the RWD forums the other day. I've tried to track it down again, but I'm afraid I can't link to it. I nearly split me sides over this one.

A punter started a thread asking if anyone would be able to post a picture of JME. The moderator descended on this (quite young looking dude judging by his avatar) and generally took the mick out of the guy for being a "poofta" Saying was he going to be spunking all over his monitor if he posted the image? A few other people chipped in and had a go too. The guy seemed to take it quite well and it basically ended with all parties having a joke together.

I'm presuming the young guy was just curious to see what JME looked like, and of course so what if he DID fancy JME, but it did make me think that the new MC star-led culture, which in the UK is a break from nearly 20 years of practically faceless street music, does present a sexual problematic. These big MCs have "problematic" charisma for men. It was well funny, on the other hand to see all these girls going mad for the MCs the other day at Stratford. Blissblogger commented at the time it was like Beatlemania.

More broadly it strikes me that male charisma usually prompts extreme squeamishness these days amongst other men, particularly among white men. Perhaps this is the reason that electronica and dance music have come to thrive. Their unproblematic facelessness is kind of comforting and unintrusive. However this strikes me as a real shame. I like all the "tribal" trappings of clothes and hair and make-up that go hand-in-hand with actually presenting people. Furthermore it always amuses me that girls can be so casual about looking at images of other women. Elle, Vogue etc are literally directories stuffed full of pictures of other women, and yet women don't necessarily question their sexuality when it comes to (quasi-objectively) appraising other women's attractiveness, and crucially charisma.

Poisonally I feel quite comfortable with my sexual orientation and it seems sort of weird that one can't reflect that another man has "a look" or "charisma" without being afraid of what other people will think about one. I mean, maybe I'm letting slip some repressed feelings, but truly I don't think so.

So anyway, I had a quick rummage through my records and came up with these two images (one of Edwyn Collins, the other Edu Lobo) which I thought one couldn't possibly but reflect upon: "Hmm he looks like a cool dude."

To be henceforth referred to as WOEBOT's "Gay Post"

Woebot
14-04-2005, 03:46 PM
.

blissblogger
14-04-2005, 04:30 PM
also being confident in my "heterosexual modernism" i concur with my courageous colleague Woebot here about the important (if usually) unspoken role of male pulchitrude in the attachments one forms with bands.... like part of what Echo & The Bunnymen cool was the sheer dazzling beauty of Ian McCulloch, especially as it seemed to fit the music in some way, the nobility of the sound and his voice given physical form

the absence of it doesn't detract from the music if it's great (eg. husker du looked like slobs, grubs) but it does add something to the package.... the fact that Green was glamorously thin and wore eyeliner in the early days... the gorgeousness of Mackenzie & Rankine

i think a big part of the cult of the Smiths was a sort of aesthetic crush felt by their mostly hetero, mostly male following towards Morrissey (which seems weird now that he looks like such a bruiser, a bouncer almost)

talking of which, Bruza's a striking looking chap... very slim... a dainty mover on stage, totally unlike the way his voice moves

Riko, judging by his appearance in Risky Roadz, has got a definite glow, a magnetism

carlos
14-04-2005, 04:40 PM
as far as white males are concerned (or maybe i should say non-black males) the visual importance of a band is still alive and well in METAL-

i have to admit i was a metalhead up to the first half of my teenage years- with posters of leather-clad black sabbath and (gulp) spandex-clad iron maiden on my walls...

Rambler
14-04-2005, 04:57 PM
The pix in Run the Road are funny though, cos about half the MCs (eg. Demon, Ears, most of Roll Deep) look really uncomfortable, vulnerable, and unmasculine in front of the camera. Which is pretty cool actually, but it's a totally different kind of charisma from what you're getting in the music. And the Bruza picture is fantastic.

blissblogger
14-04-2005, 06:37 PM
the pic of D Double E is weird cos it's bizarrely close up and he's all sweaty

but the couple of times i've seen him in the flesh he's actually really dainty and elegant and looks like he'd be incapable of perspiring

Randy Watson
14-04-2005, 06:44 PM
as far as white males are concerned (or maybe i should say non-black males) the visual importance of a band is still alive and well in METAL-

Axl Rose was a striking young man and I hated the band but Sebastian Bach of Skid Row too. Skid Row were responsible for the worst night of my life :mad:

Futile to deny that these things count when bands are establishing themselves and there is a clear distinction between looks and charisma.

sean downes
14-04-2005, 07:49 PM
i'm fascinated by clothes & looks, and the obvious link between personality on the mic and appearance; lethal b's bugs bunny jumpers, dee's pristine addidas zip ups, wiley's hats etc. then the ratty nasal voices, precise snake like flows + slender wiry frames/booming cumbersome bellows + rotund, heavy-weight chests & arms. the way say kano will kind of glide daintily around the riddim where hyper just pummels into it.

i always thought trim sounded like a big guy but i understand he's actually quite er, trim.

here's something i wrote a while back about rolldeep where i attempted to describe the mcs cadence's as mcs with what kind of fitted caps they wear http://governmentnames.blogspot.com/2004/10/rolldeep-rolldeep-you-couldnt-never.html

i don't think i fancy any of them. but i get the cool dude bit. you can definitely tell who you'd buy drugs off or go for a pint with and discuss stephen crane though.

sean downes
14-04-2005, 08:21 PM
obviously this extends to all genres of music, but it's most interesting to me in rap, especially grills. like, one tiny often obscured part of someones appearence becomes the ultimate status & personality signifier. juicy j of three 6 mafia with his platinum dracula fangs (he worships the devil), trick daddy's dirty jagged gold grill and the now legendary SSHHHHH! picture, cham had clear ice on his teeth once ("Mouth glassy, lookin' like I swallowed a mirror/Gotta brush my teeth with windex to see my ice more clearer")(his ex partner paul wall used to cut diamond grills and shit, so him and cham would always have the newest cleanest teeth), ghostface's stoic refusal to go platinum, mike jones's icey bars looking like a 32-carrot fucking brace or something, lil flip haveing like "clover land" or something written out on his teeth in multi coloured diamonds. recently you might have seen kelis with her ill helen of troy grill. i mean pretty much all north houston rappers talk about nothing but their grills.

you should read dk's 2005 top 15 grills: http://governmentnames.blogspot.com/2005/03/top-15-grills-2005-edition-some-niggas.html for more info he did a better one on ilm a while back but i can't be bothered to find it.

Red Rooster
14-04-2005, 08:53 PM
So who would make "the grime boyband" ?

b/v
15-04-2005, 12:03 AM
So who would make "the grime boyband" ?

davinche's pretty buff. non vocal role obv

Omaar
15-04-2005, 12:28 AM
I find the kind of charisma that operates in live shows, rock or reggae concerts, whatever, quite depressing.

I think I just don't like seeing power operate in this way.

But I don't really mind the kind of mediated charisma that operates through images and popular culture.

Perhaps i find it less threatening, or just less immediate.

Anyway I prefer recorded music to live music, and film to theatre, partly because there isn't this same lived dichotomy between performer and audience which I find strangely unsettling.

luka
15-04-2005, 12:39 AM
50 cent's paralysed face look is compelling in a weird sort of way
tupac's popularity can't be entirely unrelated to his feminine features and pretty little muscles

Backjob
15-04-2005, 02:57 AM
Understatement of the fuckin decade. Bet he got raped in jail.

gff
15-04-2005, 03:05 AM
oh this looks like the ideal place to say that TI is fucking hot.

Dan I.
15-04-2005, 05:41 AM
so what you're saying then, matt, is that you like to look at men

martin
15-04-2005, 10:02 AM
I think there may be something in this. This is probably why I never got into theorists - one look at pictures of Zizek, Trotsky, Foucault, Badiou etc and I can't contemplate reading a book by someone who looks so awful. Complete opposite to John Kennedy Toole though (who, funnily enough, almost looks like a proto-Jello Biafra).

Chef Napalm
15-04-2005, 01:17 PM
tupac's popularity can't be entirely unrelated to his feminine features and pretty little muscles
I've always thought the same thing about Prince.

Woebot
15-04-2005, 01:47 PM
so what you're saying then, matt, is that you like to look at men

:) OK here we go! (stifles laughter, rolls up shirt sleeves)

on the way home i got to thinking that the homophobia in dancehall is almost certainly some (stupid) attempt, or over-compensation, to handle the star's charisma in relation to their male audience.

along on the lines of "we're good-looking and charasmatic, but WE SURE AS HELL AINT GAY SO DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT"

notwithstanding jamaica's centrury-old social customs of course

puretokyo
15-04-2005, 04:41 PM
Ian Brown was always fucking gorgeous - a big part of his appeal (aside from having my favourite singing voice ever). Adds something to the music, definitely, when the singer is attractive/unique/wonderful looking. Yeah, I really do respond well to male beauty, despite being totally hetero. No shame. What can I say? I read i-D inch-by-inch every month. I love looking at beautiful girls, and I love looking at gorgeous boys - Dior Homme/Hedi Slimane, step right up.

blissblogger
15-04-2005, 05:14 PM
DMX looks like the master race or something

LL Cool J looked really good in the 80s, but his current flowerpot man hat and thin mustache look is putrid, esp in combo with all those pandering-to-the-women loverman lyrics. plus he's way too muscley now , definitely verging on that eeuggh-gross freak quality of musclebuilding mags (which i find horribly compelling, in the same way that looking at a medical textbook full of goitres and deformities is horribly compelling)

the even more sticky area is to then deal with the role of female pulchritude in music (from the male het viewpoint)

it's obviously just as important, yet doesn't always i think have to be on the 'phwooargh, i'd like to...' level

like grace slick is just witchy cool... or Siouxsie...

simon silverdollar
15-04-2005, 05:44 PM
Trim is well fit. he has lovely smile.
see the aim high dvd for evidence.

mpc
15-04-2005, 05:56 PM
flowdan is a shoom ting.

i definitely would.

k-punk
18-04-2005, 01:14 AM
Obviously, male looks have been a big part of my appreciation of Pop (much more so in my uh formative years than female looks, partly coz I was hardly interested in anything by women back then).... but I would want to see two things about that;

1. I have absolutely no problem with the idea that this is repressed homosexuality except that I don't think it is. It's taken as obvious that swooning for looks is 'sexual' but it doesn't strike me as self-evident. The relationship between swooning over beauty and sexual congress is actually quite obscure...why would that be the thing to do when confronting human beauty? (In fact, the appeal of Lad pin-ups like Jennifer Ellison and Abi Titmus is exactly that they are not TOO beautiful... because excessive beauty is too breathtaking to be reduced to wank fodder, too problematic , overpowering...)

2. The current dearth of radicality in Pop has surely a great deal to do with the rise of a certain model of the unadorned (as the) masculine (as the) 'real'. Hip hop fashion, still, TWENTY FUCKING YEARS ON, dominant to the point of uniform amongst teenage males is a way of saying, 'I don't really care about clothes except as economic status symbols...' (cos given that sportswear looks totally shit, the only appeal can be how much it cost). Tthis is complemented by that 'we're just wearing our ordinary clothes' conspicuous unpretentiousness of the likes of Elbow, Athlete (jeez their very NAMES bespeak a crushing quotidian depression) in the student-indie crowd. (I know this is fashion rather than 'beauty' strictly speaking).

Woebot
18-04-2005, 01:46 AM
2. The current dearth of radicality in Pop has surely a great deal to do with the rise of a certain model of the unadorned (as the) masculine (as the) 'real'. Hip hop fashion, still, TWENTY FUCKING YEARS ON, dominant to the point of uniform amongst teenage males is a way of saying, 'I don't really care about clothes except as economic status symbols...' (cos given that sportswear looks totally shit, the only appeal can be how much it cost). Tthis is complemented by that 'we're just wearing our ordinary clothes' conspicuous unpretentiousness of the likes of Elbow, Athlete (jeez their very NAMES bespeak a crushing quotidian depression) in the student-indie crowd. (I know this is fashion rather than 'beauty' strictly speaking).

Aw but you know SO MUCH CARE ges into into precisely what trainers and t-shirts. people like (fr'instance) d double and wiley, they're in sportswear yes, but they're immaculately groomed.

but yes i do get your point as well. there IS a sense with sportswear that it appears no "choice" is being asserted by the wearer.

and YES, ordinary clothes in indie. the last really great dresser in music i can think of is Tricky. Always looked immaculately cool. and funnily enough he was the last person in recen memory to donna dress too wasnt he? perhaps some awareness of the "problematic" exhibited in that?

k-punk
18-04-2005, 02:04 AM
Aw but you know SO MUCH CARE ges into into precisely what trainers and t-shirts. people like (fr'instance) d double and wiley, they're in sportswear yes, but they're immaculately groomed.

I know; it's not just thrown on, but it's a neurotic rather than a flamboyant caring about their appearance...

was thinking about this in relation to 'blackness' in general and how it is taken to be a synonym for 'street' now... just think about Hendrix and Miles and p-funk... how OFFWORLD 'black' used to be...


but yes i do get your point as well. there IS a sense with sportswear that it appears no "choice" is being asserted by the wearer.

in a sense, the reverse though.... too much choice, too much autonomy, is being flaunted.. because otherwise they would be literally fashion victims... there's a lot of that with teenage males, the sportswear uniform is easy because it stops them feeling in any danger of looking 'silly'...


and YES, ordinary clothes in indie. the last really great dresser in music i can think of is Tricky. Always looked immaculately cool. and funnily enough he was the last person in recen memory to donna dress too wasnt he? perhaps some awareness of the "problematic" exhibited in that?

For boys, yes, but Roisin Murphy is incredible for galz...

ripley
18-04-2005, 02:06 AM
I wonder about that generalization of hip-hop fashion.. seems like at least they can be in contrast - not a lot of functionality in jewel-studded grills.

which leads me to the different strains of hiphop and fashion, OutKast, for example.. and so-called "pimp style", for example Snoop with his long curls and fedoras, and, um, roller skates in the Snoop Dogg (DO double Gizzee) video..

Also seconding that sportswear can be immaculate, as well as gleaming, streamlined, futuristic.. seems more than just economic . There's also a lot of "science" referred to in the marketing of trainers, I don't know if that's how they function symbolically in hiphop. and there's also the collecter's attitude towards trainers - limited editions and that. Still, probably the case that it can be acceptable because sportswear resonates with "ordinary guy" clothing.

jed_
18-04-2005, 05:35 AM
there's something just incredibly depressing about the dearth of real style in all areas of music now, though. Tricky was a one off, a true original in every aspect and maybe my last major musical crush (until justin timberlake but that's much more predictable). Roll Deep look pretty awful in that picture sean linked but no better or worse, to my mind, than the guys in the indie bands mark hates so much... but i tend to go for the guys in the converse all stars over the guys in nike air IRL too.

jed_
18-04-2005, 06:12 AM
There's also a lot of "science" referred to in the marketing of trainers, I don't know if that's how they function symbolically in hiphop.

as little as i see of any of the cultural stuff i'm interested in on TV, BBC's Culture show still dragged out that old trainer fetish/collector thing for another sketch last week and, while i sighed at having to watch that one more time, i knew i'd still have to watch it countless times again. It seems to me to be completely manufactured in every sense.

owen
18-04-2005, 08:08 PM
k-punk and jd are spot on here, it's rather depressing.

mind you aren't the franz/libertines neo-britpop axis trying to revive this somewhat? neat hair, suits and whatnot. they can't really pull it off though, but the intention is there. going to vaguely 'indie' nights in my manor of late things are definitely improving, though there's still too much greasy hair and jeans for my liking (stands up straight, grips cane)

re- roll deep, scratchy is pretty magnetic live. plus girls hair, mad staring eyes etc....

martin's comment upthread about 'theorists' looking shit can be disproved thus-

owen
18-04-2005, 08:12 PM
(that pic of edwyn collins is quite something, by the way)

also, the kompakt lot are often immaculately turned out, superpitcher in particular-

owen
18-04-2005, 08:25 PM
there was a moment a few years ago (especially circa the 'she's a bitch' video) where that 'offworld' thing was coming back to some extent, when r&b was getting all futurist - the cover to missy's 'da real world' (posted gratuitously below) which i still think looks awesome...

also the andre3000 and (to some extent) snoop school of crimping and nice coats is kind of important- its a shame though that wearing nice coats has to be so indelibly associated with misogyny, in the whole pimp angle though that's been true since what, the '40s? i remember a good debate in a magazine ( i think it was in 'cheap date' though i'm not sure if i want to admit to reading that) between a group of 'rockers' and 'hip hoppers' (cough) as to who dresses better- a lot of the arguments of the latter were of the 'you look like a fag' variety and the former 'ha your trousers are wide' (both looked awful in the pics) but they did eventually agree on outkast. too much yellow involved there for my liking though.

blissblogger
18-04-2005, 08:25 PM
>Kompakt

that's why it's called 'metrohaus' !

>sportswear/street

there is a link though between the look of miles (or the cover of on the corner with its pimpadelic street scene) and Earth Wind and Fire, and the sportswear look in bashment/grime/etc, and that is a/ the sheer garishness of the colours b/ the shiny man-made fabric futuristicness thing. you get close to some of these guys and you don't want to inhale cos they're probably giving off all kinds of chemicals like a new soaf.

D Double E looks so dainty and immaculate in head to foot purple. Bruza looks dapper with his stovepipe-redolent Dr Seuss cap. but others i agree look just hideous. but is quite extreme, a form of dandyism

ripley
18-04-2005, 10:47 PM
as little as i see of any of the cultural stuff i'm interested in on TV, BBC's Culture show still dragged out that old trainer fetish/collector thing for another sketch last week and, while i sighed at having to watch that one more time, i knew i'd still have to watch it countless times again. It seems to me to be completely manufactured in every sense.

Not sure what you mean here, about manufactured. manufactured, in the sense that all fashion and hype is manufactured, yes. do you mean more manufactured than some other collector-fetish?

the science I was referring to was the sports/physics science in a lot of sneakers, in line with the futuristic themes.

And the futuristic stuff popped up elsewhere, there was Busta and Missy doing cyber-goth a few years ago, as well.

and yeah Owen, good point - the fabulous coat thing is so symbolically linked to pimping - but the gender politics are quite weird there.. almost like "see, I'm not girly, just because I'm wearing broacde.. I can still exploit women"

dubplatestyle
19-04-2005, 12:15 AM
there's most certainly a metrosexual strain that runs through current hip-hop. without a doubt. when you've got guys in articles telling you to rotate your choice of kicks daily and clean that shit with a toothbrush (!), there's some serious attention to detail going on there. plus with the whole post-kanye/"fuck a throwback give me a button-up" look, there's a definite push towards "dressing up", at least in the preppie sense. (all the fashion ads in vibe and the source are very baggy banana republic. it's as if the actual role of tommy h's clothes is finally coming home to roost.) i think if you're dismissing this while lamenting the sort of "james brown owns 70 custom tailored suits" or "new wave bands dressed so posh" thing, you're just not moving with the times.

also, yes, TI looks fucking fabulous and exerts a tremendous charisma that's got a lot to do with sexuality for me. (a lot of my lack of interest in rap recently comes from that, i think, the lack of an overpowering charsima. paul wall has nice teeth, but he's no TI.) when they dressed him up for that vibe cover story in those immaculate suits i was blown away.

i think i care about this shit so much because i dress like a hobo.

mms
19-04-2005, 12:25 AM
of course you can go to far on the smart suits thing and be paul weller which would be terrible.
sportswear and hip hop casual has a funny history, the cover of paid in full for instance with eric b and rakim in gucci tracksuits, or run dmc, one of the best dressed hip hop act's deal with addidas and bringing out their own range of clothing onwards to jz and rebok nowdays.

it's at a bit of a nadir now in the uk cos it's all part of the same vaccum, sloppy trackies etc are cheap and easy and no problem to look after, it's same bag as ready meals and playstation imo.

luka
19-04-2005, 12:28 AM
what about wiley? his tracksuits are not sloppy, they're works of art!

mms
19-04-2005, 12:32 AM
what about wiley? his tracksuits are not sloppy, they're works of art!

i like his jumpers

monkeysblood
20-04-2005, 12:25 AM
I've been wanting to mention for a while that I thought Riko was well horny in Aim High 2..
...disturbingly he began warning me against such feelings, as the clip filmed in the studio ran through.

shame.

Woebot
20-04-2005, 12:50 AM
the even more sticky area is to then deal with the role of female pulchritude in music (from the male het viewpoint)

it's obviously just as important, yet doesn't always i think have to be on the 'phwooargh, i'd like to...' level

like grace slick is just witchy cool... or Siouxsie...

i've been thinking about this.

and yes you're right. in some ways its easier to reflect upon "male beauty", appreciate it for what it is, and pass on it :-)

distractingly sexy women in music! indeed that is a sticky topic. actually in the field of "alternative music" (excuse the shorthand) i think sexy girls are quite hard to come by. actually when i have a reaction it tends to be kinda swoony, imbued with ambitious romanticism. its almost always inspired by sound too, like for instance joni mitchell's "blue" or vashti bunyan's "another diamond day"

charismatic looking women in music?!? they almost always seem to be "unnattractive" to some degree, making the best of themselves, like Missy before she lost all her weight. kim gordon, who i don't fancy in the least, always looks cool. nico, well i'm sure olly craner probably finds her becoming, she leaves me cold, but stuns me with her elegance too.

of the punk girls its only the young vivienne goldman i find really fruity. have you seen that super-sexy photo of her and with john lydon in the background looking lascivious. she's divine.

mms
20-04-2005, 01:09 AM
i've been thinking about this.

and yes you're right. in some ways its easier to reflect upon "male beauty", appreciate it for what it is, and pass on it :-)

distractingly sexy women in music! indeed that is a sticky topic. actually in the field of "alternative music" (excuse the shorthand) i think sexy girls are quite hard to come by. actually when i have a reaction it tends to be kinda swoony, imbued with ambitious romanticism. its almost always inspired by sound too, like for instance joni mitchell's "blue" or vashti bunyan's "another diamond day"

charismatic looking women in music?!? they almost always seem to be "unnattractive" to some degree, making the best of themselves, like Missy before she lost all her weight. kim gordon, who i don't fancy in the least, always looks cool. nico, well i'm sure olly craner probably finds her becoming, she leaves me cold, but stuns me with her elegance too.

of the punk girls its only the young vivienne goldman i find really fruity. have you seen that super-sexy photo of her and with john lydon in the background looking lascivious. she's divine.



i was totally obsessed by nico till i read that orrible book about her on her last tour.
she was extremely gorgeous and powerful.

minikomi
20-04-2005, 06:30 AM
http://djheavygrinder.revolutionrave.com/home.html

puretokyo
20-04-2005, 02:37 PM
i was totally obsessed by nico till i read that orrible book about her on her last tour.
she was extremely gorgeous and powerful.

i just got 'the end', fucking fantastic. nico, cale and eno. its a sonic wet dream if nothing else. i like it a lot better than the marble index. shes something special - i love doom girls.

jenks
20-04-2005, 03:38 PM
charismatic looking women in music?!? they almost always seem to be "unnattractive" to some degree, making the best of themselves, like Missy before she lost all her weight. kim gordon, who i don't fancy in the least, always looks cool. .
pj harvey fits in here too, dunno though if your theory fits all though, i remember having quite a thing for danielle dax!!!
as far as the bloke thing goes i used to have sylvian, bowie, ian bunnyman, pete burns and mozzer plastered over every squareinch of my bedroom and somehow i managed to idolise them without fancying them, must be something to do withe pathology of fandom , i am sure fred vermoral could make soemthing of it. there seems to me little to compare to these guys who were all attractive but more importantly made attractive music. those that make attractive music of whatever stripe are not the handsome devils of the past - now it'sbedroom bofffs or tracksuit princes. you can see why they tried to resurrect the new roms with romo, shame tthe bands sucked so badly. but christ can we see an end to sports jackets and jeans a la the strokes - surely someone out there can wear tweed?

don_quixote
20-04-2005, 05:08 PM
i have friends who are obsessed by both pj harvey and bjork, but have never seen the attraction. well, i did with bjork, but it was only dancer in the dark that did it for me opposed to her actual music. and certainly that doesnt have anything to do with her fashion, she played someone going blind ffs.

owen
20-04-2005, 07:08 PM
it is a sticky one, isn't it.

i tend to think bjork looks fantastic, in a very prog kind of way. there is a definite sexual tinge to that- i mean on the covers of her last two albums she does look oddly sated....
often though it isn't quite sexual, per se- i mean sleeping with nico would have been a preposterous idea (big up to whoever was mentioning 'the end' btw, those nico/cale albums are incredible). i like nico in the same way i like david sylvian, in a resolutely non-bodily fluids-involving way.

sometimes its more a question of thinking 'cor i'd like to look like that!'- i saw 'born in flames' a little while ago and that was my reaction anyway. pat place just looks like woah.

just read steve beresford's invisible jukebox in t'wire, and he effectively says he worked with the slits cos he fancied viv albertine! dear oh dear

pfflam
20-04-2005, 07:43 PM
There is plenty of style in African American Hip Hop and even in much popular music today . . . it might not be your idea of style but it is style nonetheless . . .

In African American culture the tracksuit-thing has to do with masculinity in a collecive sense: identification with team sports and regionalism --Snoop and The Pitsburgh Steelers (which I, somewhat embarassingly, find completely understandable) but the main thing with all aspects is that every garment and accessory is absolutely NEW and absolutey immaculate . . . its like American Modism . . . .
It is also very much about an alternative to the expensive suit look . . . it too is expensive but has a different set of standards for success . . . in that way it is about differentiation from the white notions of fashion

In that sense it is about money . . . but more so than money it is about the power that money represents for many; power to be able to control your appearance, to be able to have consistently immaculate and also expensive basketball shoes


Also, in the States, Team sports are a means for many African Americans to achieve fame and noteriety etc . . . it wouldn't be too wrong to say that most team-sports -besides the dreadful and very unhip game of baseball - have become, shall I put it too delicately, very desegregated: there is a high percentage of African-Americans to Whites in Basketball and Football. This coupled with the fact that for many American males (of any race) there is no real common ground for basic things like what to say to one another . . . . sports is a handy tessera: every 'man' can tell you about Big Ben Roethslisberger . . . . knowledge and mastery of this common vocabulary provides security . . . but a real dominance of the symbolic extensions of that vocabulary, as expressed in detailed and absolutely up to date clothes and accessories, is a masttery also over a realm defined, in its interests and focus, as very masculine . . . . its sort of an enigma: the focus on the external appearance is dandyish in the same manner as the most fastidious flaneur was, but the symbols cultivated are related to masculinty -the arena of collectively agreed upon masculinity . . . so much so that it is almost absurd . . . a caricature. Very Apollonian

BTW: If there is one place in the States where Style is alive and well (though I tend to think it tends to be not nice to look at) it is the locker rooms of major sports teams . . . where the players show up in the most expensive hand-tailored outfits that are creative and often outrageous . . they try to outdo one another even . . . its pretty funny how the dumb jocks are adopting self-conscious fashion while the Culture industry of the street is (was) adopting sports-fashion self consciously

also, Foucault was quite the stylish man: minimalist in every aspoect of his self-presentation . . . anti-fashion perhaps . . . but that too is a very stylized and even fashionable look . . . he also, simply, looked very cool.

owen
20-04-2005, 07:55 PM
i was about to post something derisive about that and then found this on google- point taken!

mms
20-04-2005, 08:33 PM
i just got 'the end', fucking fantastic. nico, cale and eno. its a sonic wet dream if nothing else. i like it a lot better than the marble index. shes something special - i love doom girls.


the first album is a funny one, a folk album with the songs written by all these singers, jackson browne, lou reed, bob dylan, john cale, all these would be lovely songs darkened by her teutonic, gloomy disinterested presence.

as for doom girls there is a whole website dedicated to those girls me and my mates used to call 'alternateenees'when we were grubby yoot, they sponsored alec empire on his last tour and have a bit of a cult following, called www.suicidegirls.com , sort of goth soft porn , they are all ridiculously gorgeous.

captain easychord
20-04-2005, 09:47 PM
the pic of D Double E is weird cos it's bizarrely close up and he's all sweaty

but the couple of times i've seen him in the flesh he's actually really dainty and elegant and looks like he'd be incapable of perspiring

it's true, he's quite small. i'd expected him to be this hulking kind of figure, but he turned out to be small boned, delicate features.

k-punk
20-04-2005, 10:22 PM
There is plenty of style in African American Hip Hop and even in much popular music today . . . it might not be your idea of style but it is style nonetheless . . .

This sounds like the Fashion equivalent of Popism, or Poptimism... There's always style/good records [delte as applicable] if you look for it... Obligatory relativism, it's not for the likes of us to criticize...


In African American culture the tracksuit-thing has to do with masculinity in a collecive sense: identification with team sports and regionalism -

As oposed to white European culture, where sportswear signfiies feminist individualism and internationalism I suppose? What could be worse than 'masculinity in a collective sense'?



It is also very much about an alternative to the expensive suit look . . . it too is expensive but has a different set of standards for success . . . in that way it is about differentiation from the white notions of fashion

Tell that to the white teenagers at my college, who almost all wear sportswear....



Also, in the States, Team sports are a means for many African Americans to achieve fame and noteriety etc . . . it wouldn't be too wrong to say that most team-sports -besides the dreadful and very unhip game of baseball - have become, shall I put it too delicately, very desegregated: there is a high percentage of African-Americans to Whites in Basketball and Football. This coupled with the fact that for many American males (of any race) there is no real common ground for basic things like what to say to one another . . . . sports is a handy tessera: every 'man' can tell you about Big Ben Roethslisberger . . . . knowledge and mastery of this common vocabulary provides security . . . but a real dominance of the symbolic extensions of that vocabulary, as expressed in detailed and absolutely up to date clothes and accessories, is a masttery also over a realm defined, in its interests and focus, as very masculine . . . . its sort of an enigma: the focus on the external appearance is dandyish in the same manner as the most fastidious flaneur was, but the symbols cultivated are related to masculinty -the arena of collectively agreed upon masculinity . . . so much so that it is almost absurd . . . a caricature.

You're just re-stating what I said, but re-evaluating it... I can see nothing positive about masculinity in this utterly conventional sense... being a flaneur-type dandy was a challenge to this conservative version of masculinity as hyper-physicalized 'domination' and 'mastery'... the fact that men devote so much energy and time to tracksuits IS the problem...

believekevin
20-04-2005, 11:50 PM
Couple things to remember:

- Jay-Z tells us he is too old for jerseys. It was all button-ups and fancy cufflinks on his aborted tour with R Kelly.

- White T's are HUGE because they cost 2$US and you only wear them once. So when you go out to a club, half the dudes are wearing BLINDINGLY white XL tees. On the real, newness and disregard for thrift is important.

jenks
21-04-2005, 12:00 AM
being a flaneur-type dandy was a challenge to this conservative version of masculinity as hyper-physicalized 'domination' and 'mastery'... the fact that men devote so much energy and time to tracksuits IS the problem...
i agree it is not about being the same or showing how uch money you've got. so much of this trainer/trackie stuff is about being the same - when my place has a non-uniform day it might as well be called trackie and cap day - that's the uniform!!!
christ i would shake the hand of a flaneur - do such people exist? i used to be chased down the streets cos i had scarves in my hair - sunnyside road in hitchin was poorly named. :eek:

don_quixote
21-04-2005, 02:51 PM
charismatic looking women in music?!?



aaliyah?

mpc
21-04-2005, 03:22 PM
Man walks into the bedroom with a sheep under his arm, his wife is lying in bed reading.
Man says, "This is the pig I have sex with when you've got a headache."
Wife replies, "I think you'll find, that is a sheep."
Man replies, "I think you'll find I was talking to the sheep."

simon silverdollar
21-04-2005, 03:51 PM
Man walks into the bedroom with a sheep under his arm, his wife is lying in bed reading.
Man says, "This is the pig I have sex with when you've got a headache."
Wife replies, "I think you'll find, that is a sheep."
Man replies, "I think you'll find I was talking to the sheep."


what's white and wriggles on the floor?


cum dancing.



(sorry...it's john, he's a bad influence on me...)

pfflam
22-04-2005, 05:33 AM
. . . .Hmmm?!? . . . . I didn't know I was arguing with you. I thought I was merely pointing out some observations from my experience.

I would point out that I did say I found it an enigma that an aesthetic that ties itself overtly to male centered big money sports is also very fastidious . . . . but men are like peacocks . . . even though most never seem to want to admit it . . .

As far as white students and sports fashion: I never meant to say that the phenomena I was talking about was exclusive. I will say though, from having lived in five major American urban environments, that there is a very different attitude, generally (not absolutely) towards the care taken in appearing well kempt . . . I've also taught at number of Unis and seen this as well . . . and in each case the White males that adopt the sports-hip-hop aesthetic tend to be slobs.

In the Urban enviroments that I lived in, among the fashionably sportif, it wasn't merely about wearing sports clothing identifiers . . . never just wearing caps and the like . . it was about having absolutely immaculate clothes that were also at the cutting edge of whatever miniscule adjustment to garment cut or pin-stipping was yet to show itself in the mainstream . . . . and these are not wealthy kids, these were not wealthy neighborhoods. Having the ability to look sharp in the latest, cleanest, least used items is a form of showing aptitude, survival skills, power, and, if their eye is keen, a certain je ne sais quoi . . .

Fashion generally is about self-presentation and identification with one group or another, at the basic level of consuming and casual wear . . . succesful use of the right clothes indicates that one is adept, knowing . . . to have mastery of a style and/or to be the originator of style is a kind of power, a kind of power over the other realm of casual consumption of fashion, or just the power to be able to feel at home among groups of supposedly like minded.
This is not real political power . . . but the appearance of power . . . and power is alluring.
Not all forms of power are domination, some are also forms of freedom-from as well . . . or also merely ways to organize the chaos of a life in difficult straights into a manageable fiction . . . and if done very well, a note-worthy looking fiction, one that will get others to try and say the same thing about themselves as well . . .

I'm not putting forth anything earth shattering . . . just kind of thinking outloud based on experience.

As far as seeing nothing positive in 'masculinity in this utterly conventional sense' . . . oh well . . . . I find it a bit sad that many men here in teh States have nothing to say to each other except what they can share about sports . . . and I find it oppressive and stifling . . . and I know that much of the aura of the fascination with sports is based around a collective oppression of femininity in symbolic and real terms: completely idiotic genderization . . .
but, i recently became, to the horror of my friends and colleagues, a sports fan (a particular team even) . . . I am fascinated by it: it is an intricate world full of byzantine trivia and absurd passions and lots of really stupid men caring about the most innane and obscure statistics . . . at the same time there is something, quite simply, great about the games . . . games with very talented athletes struggling their utmost face to face . . . its a beautiful thing . . . men or women (WMBA is very exciting to watch too) . . . . Games have all the makings of the best drama, circumscribed by time limit and a set of rules, grace under pressure, tragedy, conflict, resolution etc . . .

I lived in Pittsburgh for a number of years, when I first got there I was certain that all professional sports were mere opiats, where 'false conciousness' was the norm . . . . what a bunch of pitiful rubes . . . idiot hypermasculine men, or pathetic lonely scrawny guys vicariously feeling their manhood . .. the lot of them are completely The Problem!
What I found, when I got involved and explored the terrain, was that I was right mostly, but I also fell in love with the game . . I also saw that in depressed regions like Pittsburgh it is a real social bond . . . . sure it would be better if they were organizing and self teaching themselves the rhetoric of Deleuzian lines of escape, contemplating the panoptic hegemony of Hienz Field, or recognizing 'le petit object a' as its symbolically passed through the stretched legs of the Center as he snaps to the QB . . . I mean the Phallus . . . 'What pethetic fools sports fans are, complete idiots and all of them who care about any of this stuff are so obviously in complete ignorance of such important stuff,' i thought . . . anyway, I found that there are not only a few radically politicized left-leaning women who also find the games interesting, but also a number of thoughtful men . . . . I also found it fascinating just to watch the rites and rules unfold . . . I occasion a 'fan bar' for the particular team I like even though the team is in another state . . . its amazing to watch such pageantry and absurd solemnity . . . these people really get involved . . .
I guess in England you have extreme fans: the famed 'hooligans' . . . I could see how that would make want to smirk at their idiocy too . . . . but I bet their rituals and their ins-and outs are also interestting if you could find your way in . . . . problem is (and its true here) they can sense an egghead a mile off . . . That is if you don't know have the right look :)


Personally, I like crushed velvet victorian jackets, with loose linen shirts, and here and there a few paisleys . . . or, I should say, when I'm not simply wearing jeans and black t-shirt . . .

oh . . . and before I am deconstructed with clenched teeth and anger, I'm just saying stuff not writing a dissertation . . . long past that and I am not that invested in it either. . . . just thought I'd participate . . .

mms
22-04-2005, 10:08 AM
the other group male wear that is completley tiresome is the kind of skateboarder look, t shirt, jeans and shoes but from independently owned companies.
so dull at the end of the day.
it all looks baggy and knackered, at least get clothes that fit you and are clean.

standard
22-04-2005, 01:11 PM
I think colour-coordination is also a very impotant factor in the tracksuit/hat/trainers combo.

luka
20-04-2017, 05:48 PM
I think colour-coordination is also a very impotant factor in the tracksuit/hat/trainers combo.

true.

CrowleyHead
20-04-2017, 07:53 PM
I'm screaming every 3rd or 4th post in this thread.

CrowleyHead
20-04-2017, 07:54 PM
50 cent's paralysed face look is compelling in a weird sort of way


FUCKING HELL LUKA

luka
20-04-2017, 08:15 PM
Lol

craner
20-04-2017, 09:20 PM
I was actually thinking, watching the Brit awards this year, how strange and boring it is that the "alternative" style bands are packed with good-looking boys, practically four male models running around on stage. This never happened in the 90s. Blur having 3 pin-ups seemed like an aberration, a sell-out. You were lucky in an indie band if the lead singer or guitarist was good looking. And then there was the Britpop phenomenon of the Sleeperbloke.

It was bad when a band was full of mingers, but somehow not as bad as what we have now: a selection of groomed, Vogue-ready, clean hunks and waifs pulling post-punk moves or whatever.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it feels wrong.

I guess, like Reynolds said on 2005, Mackenzie and Rankine were a great-looking duo.

CrowleyHead
20-04-2017, 11:49 PM
Depends on how you look at things. Matty Healy looks like a handsome young man one day and the other day looks like cotton slapped on a thumb.