Batman

[mms]

a series which was explictly shaped by Joseph Campbells work on the resonance of heroic myths.

sure but was mickey mouse, the only trick disney made was not to create a whole new slew of characters every summer, without fail.

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

Batman's not supernatural as well,

yes, sure. i've been waiting for that one! i suppose there's a direct element of the appeal of the socially conscious vigilante there with batman. still he is very reliant on effectively supernatural technology we are asked to believe is accessible to him as a member of society's elite.

 

[IdleRich]

"no one's to say that, but i find the flashy computer generated spectacle of these films very boring and i'd say anyone with no emotional investment in them would feel the same way. unless they literally are just sitting there watching them as one would a fireworks display. i don't mean to suck the yuks out for anyone- go and see batman kick some ass if it makes you feel good.."

But who is to say that someone who has "seen right through the ubermensch hero myth but enjoy(s) the dramatic stories and spectacular action anyway" is without emotional involvement?
I'm not sure what you're saying though overall, presumably you are a fan of the comics (or am I wrong here?) but you are not a fan of the adaptations even though the films do contain the most important elements of the comics, namely the ability to replace the heroes of ancient Greek myths.
I agree with you by the way, I'm not at all interested in these films that have been everywhere over the last few years - though maybe I should check some out so I know what I'm talking about.

"it can be. what archetypes do you think superhero stories draw on, or perhaps you see them as without precedent?"

I wouldn't necessarily see any given one as without precedent but I'd be very wary of neatly parcelling them up into one oft-quoted idea that has become so orthodox that it is often repeated as gospel without sufficient justification or thought.

"james bond isn't a moral figure, neither was he gifted with powers descended from on high. he requires no "origin" story. he is an entirely, avowedly secular hero. pure male wish fulfillment."

Well, this is exactly my problem with what you're saying; you could take almost any specific superhero and argue why he didn't fit the mold along lines similar to that - just as I could argue that Bond as a servant of his country was following what was the most important duty at the time of his creation and was thus a strongly moral figure. He was gifted with gadgets (just like Batman) along with the licence to kill from the British Government (the Highest of the On High) and there have been several attempts to expain him with Young Bond type prequels or "origin stories" as I prefer to call them.

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

I'm not sure what you're saying though overall, presumably you are a fan of the comics (or am I wrong here?)

i hate superhero comics...but like any comics fan i've ended up reading loads of them. what can i say, i'm an idiot

I wouldn't necessarily see any given one as without precedent but I'd be very wary of neatly parcelling them up into one oft-quoted idea that has become so orthodox that it is often repeated as gospel without sufficient justification or thought..

it's there in the name of the genre. to deny it seems churlish and no one has offered an alternative interpretation. the parallells are there for all to see.

it's the sort of thing you'd only read about in comics theory, which is hardly popular so i don't see an argument for an "orthodoxy" here. i mean who would be so stupid as to intellectualise comics

Well, this is exactly my problem with what you're saying; you could take almost any specific superhero and argue why he didn't fit the mold along lines similar to that - just as I could argue that Bond as a servant of his country was following what was the most important duty at the time of his creation and was thus a strongly moral figure. He was gifted with gadgets (just like Batman) along with the licence to kill from the British Government (the Highest of the On High) and there have been several attempts to expain him with Young Bond type prequels or "origin stories" as I prefer to call them.

where is the element of the supernatural or of a given sign, the avowed statement of a moral quest, all of which every superhero story contains, including batman? the fleming novels don't even really posit bond as admirable. he is also a highly sexualised, caddish figure as filmed, superheroes are distinctly chaste by comparison.

 

[mms]

yes, sure. i've been waiting for that one! i suppose there's a direct element of the appeal of the socially conscious vigilante there with batman. still he is very reliant on effectively supernatural technology we are asked to believe is accessible to him as a member of society's elite.

he's essentially tricked people into believing he's supernatural, it's a double edged sword really, he's a socially conscious vigilante who in order to remain so has to pretend to be something supernatural. It's not like he's offering any real solution in the stories, or a change in attitudes, essentially to get on with his job, he has to scare the average person and use a costume, anonymity to pick off the 'villains'.

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

nonetheless at the character's genesis he is given a "sign" like a latter day saint. how many times has a bat flown through your window?

 

[mms]

nonetheless at the character's genesis he is given a "sign" like a latter day saint. how many times has a bat flown through your window?

only once.

that's true but it's also mixed up in the trauma of his parents being needlessly killed, which to us grown up with psychoanalysis stuff suggests that the bat might not even have existed, or that his crusade is really fucked up and unresolvable will constantly fuck him over all the time etc, he has to grapple with the supernatural part of the aspect of his crusade and it ruins the human part of his life, there are other ways for a rich man to fight crime.

 

[IdleRich]

"i hate superhero comics...but like any comics fan i've ended up reading loads of them. what can i say, i'm an idiot"

Fair enough.

"it's the sort of thing you'd only read about in comics theory, which is hardly popular so i don't see an argument for an "orthodoxy" here. i mean who would be so stupid as to intellectualise comics"

Well, I meant it's a specific instance of the same orthodoxy that posits hollywood stars, football players or celebrity chefs as the new Greek heroes. Basically that seems to be the handy catch-all description of anything where someone does something slightly out of the ordinary and other people are interested in them doing it.

"where is the element of the supernatural or of a given sign, the avowed statement of a moral quest, all of which every superhero story contains, including batman? the fleming novels don't even really posit bond as admirable. he is also a highly sexualised, caddish figure as filmed, superheroes are distinctly chaste by comparison."

Well, obviously there is no element of the supernatural because it's set in the real world but surely we can avoid the completely literal? I mean, I might just as well ask how you can say that Marvel Comics are Greek myths when they're not even in ancient Greek or set in Greece?
What do you mean by a "given sign"? I'm guessing you're talking about some kind of thing that points to the destiny of the character? Is that right, I bet I can make up one for Bond if you give me a few minutes.
Bond isn't admirable and he is sexualised? Aren't the original Greek heroes sexualised? Probably the reason that comic book heroes weren't so sexualised was because they were aimed at children.

 

[droid]

Fokse - did you ever read Ted McKeevers' Superman short in A1? If you're looking for existential self doubt in a superhero story, then thats it (albeit on the far fringes of the genre).

 

[Mr. Tea]

there are other ways for a rich man to fight crime.

I want to see a superhero film about an orphaned millionaire who runs music and drama workshops for disadvantaged kids.

 

[mms]

I want to see a superhero film about an orphaned millionaire who runs music and drama workshops for disadvantaged kids.

well there is a genre of those kind of films but the protagonists don't get dressed up in fancy gear, you can't go and get a Michelle Pfieffer doll with action 'blackboard and chalk' different genre parameters

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

Well, I meant it's a specific instance of the same orthodoxy that posits hollywood stars, football players or celebrity chefs as the new Greek heroes. Basically that seems to be the handy catch-all description of anything where someone does something slightly out of the ordinary and other people are interested in them doing it.

no, it isn't. i'm not offering semantic interpretations of real life, or equating celebrities with mythical figures. i'm talking about our fictions. fictions we have turned to for inspiration and reassurance throughout human history. i'm saying those fictions haven't changed much, though the surrounding world has, and in an age of such conflict and cynicism that interests me. superhero narratives bear the closest and most direct relation of any narrative genre to ancient myth. they follow the tropes almost exactly. what you've said above has nothing to do with any contention i've made.

Well, obviously there is no element of the supernatural because it's set in the real world but surely we can avoid the completely literal? I mean, I might just as well ask how you can say that Marvel Comics are Greek myths when they're not even in ancient Greek or set in Greece?
What do you mean by a "given sign"? I'm guessing you're talking about some kind of thing that points to the destiny of the character? Is that right, I bet I can make up one for Bond if you give me a few minutes.
Bond isn't admirable and he is sexualised? Aren't the original Greek heroes sexualised? Probably the reason that comic book heroes weren't so sexualised was because they were aimed at children.

you seem to be disagreeing with me for the sake of it. there isn't much substance to any of this. i've no idea whether you've read the bond novels or not but if you had you would know he is barely characterised. he's a mercenary blank, a man with a job to do. he's also a mysognist and obvious extension of fleming's testosterone fuelled fantasies. therefore a very different and not a moral figure, and more an excercise in wish fullfilment. there are no quasi mystical trappings. he might be more usefully compared to spillane's mike hammer than batman.

i didn't say marvel comics WERE greek myths, however they stem from that source, and its a primal human source. The first popular superhero was directly based on greek myth, and all the significant tropes are still in place. mms correctly says that we also might look to folk hero archetypes or urban myth.

hero myths have always played a morally didactic role and been part of children's education. now less so, as the power of the sale has largely subsumed that aspect. however the core narrative remains almost untouched. if you choose to consume from some position of wordly detatchment that's your perogative, but that doesn't mean what i say is without foundation. it's well founded in the history of the medium, a history i'm increasingly unsure you have much interest in.

Fokse - did you ever read Ted McKeevers' Superman short in A1? If you're looking for existential self doubt in a superhero story, then thats it (albeit on the far fringes of the genre).

no i haven't, and if was looking for existential self doubt in a comic i'd turn to a solo cartoonist like schulz, crumb or many others. as i've already said the superhero narrative doesn't resonate with me at all and seems crude and childish no matter how adult the trappings.

enjoy batman tonight everyone

 

[vimothy]

the power of the sale

Freudian slip?

 

[vimothy]

fokse vektaire xeven:

Do you view all mythical/archetypal fiction (historical or otherwise) as similarly childish and uninteresting?

 

[IdleRich]

"no, it isn't. i'm not offering semantic interpretations of real life, or equating celebrities with mythical figures. i'm talking about our fictions. fictions we have turned to for inspiration and reassurance throughout human history. i'm saying those fictions haven't changed much, though the surrounding world has, and in an age of such conflict and cynicism that interests me."

I know you're not, but other people do. I'm saying that people have turned to Greek fictions to explain celebrity culture with the celebrities and their idealised personalities filling our assumed need for heroes - it just seems to me that it's a handy explanation whenever someone wants to tie something together that doesn't really stand up except in the most general (and thus meaningless) terms.

"what you've said above has nothing to do with any contention i've made."

It does because I said that Greek myth parallels are an orthodoxy and that super heroes/greek hero comparisons are just one facet of a general trend. You appeared to disagree so I pointed out some other examples.

"you seem to be disagreeing with me for the sake of it. there isn't much substance to any of this. i've no idea whether you've read the bond novels or not but if you had you would know he is barely characterised. he's a mercenary blank, a man with a job to do. he's also a mysognist and obvious extension of fleming's testosterone fuelled fantasies. therefore a very different and not a moral figure, and more an excercise in wish fullfilment. there are no quasi mystical trappings. he might be more usefully compared to spillane's mike hammer than batman."

Well, I've read some of them. Yes, obviously he's a misogynist and testosterone fuelled but so is Hercules (the guy with all those jobs to do) - and how much characterisation is there in Greek myth?

"it's well founded in the history of the medium, a history i'm increasingly unsure you have much interest in."

Superhero comics? I have virtually no interest at all.

"i didn't say marvel comics WERE greek myths, however they stem from that source, and its a primal human source. The first popular superhero was directly based on greek myth, and all the significant tropes are still in place. mms correctly says that we also might look to folk hero archetypes or urban myth."

Really? Who is the first popular superhero and who is he based on? I'm not being sarcastic here by the way.

 

[droid]

no i haven't, and if was looking for existential self doubt in a comic i'd turn to a solo cartoonist like schulz, crumb or many others. as i've already said the superhero narrative doesn't resonate with me at all and seems crude and childish no matter how adult the trappings.

:slanted:That was a response to your specific criticism of the lack of 'self doubt' in superhero comics, not comics in general. Obviously if you were 'looking for existential self doubt', you wouldn't pick up a copy of the avengers, but you made the point, not me.

And you should read it - its a short piece called 'survivor', and like much of the work that was featured in A1, is more than worthy.

Speaking of 'non-mystical' heroes - what about the Punisher, Nick fury, Iron fist, even Captain America (despite the super serum)?. There is a strong element of 'wish fulfillment' in many superhero comics, and similarities with the kung fu mythos - mere mortals achieving near superhuman status through extreme training etc, that doesn't really fit into your category.

 

[droid]

Really? Who is the first popular superhero and who is he based on? I'm not being sarcastic here by the way.

Its commonly believed to be superman, based on Hercules (I think).

Its probably a pulp character like Tarzan, John Carter of Mars, Doc Savage, the gladiator or The Shadow. They would pretty much all qualify based on the definitions in this thread. 'Mystical' powers, strong moral purpose etc...

 

[fokse vektaire xeven]

I know you're not, but other people do.

good for them; i haven't and what i have said doesn't equate to the same thing at all. if you think there's no value in ever taking a general view that precludes all but specific discussion, and the fact is these narratives vary little and can be talked about of a piece. if you disagree there's simply no discussion to have.

Well, I've read some of them. Yes, obviously he's a misogynist and testosterone fuelled but so is Hercules (the guy with all those jobs to do) - and how much characterisation is there in Greek myth?

as i have said numerous times, they have a moral spiritual and societal function absent from james bond, who functions as a direct extension of his author.

Superhero comics? I have virtually no interest at all.

this is apparent from your line of argument.

Really? Who is the first popular superhero and who is he based on? I'm not being sarcastic here by the way.

superman. i'll leave the rest up to you.

:slanted:That was a response to your specific criticism of the lack of 'self doubt' in superhero comics, not comics in general. Obviously if you were 'looking for existential self doubt', you wouldn't pick up a copy of the avengers, but you made the point, not me.

And you should read it - its a short piece called 'survivor', and like much of the work that was featured in A1, is more than worthy.

sorry- didn't mean to be snippy. it's just with the current availability of the kind of comics i enjoy i'm a lot more likely to be found reading them, having read superhero comics for want of being able to get hold of much else as a kid. now i'm out of that desert i like to stay out

Speaking of 'non-mystical' heroes - what about the Punisher, Nick fury, Iron fist, even Captain America (despite the super serum)?. There is a strong element of 'wish fulfillment' in many superhero comics, and similarities with the kung fu mythos - mere mortals achieving near superhuman status through extreme training etc, that doesn't really fit into your category.

well, kung - fu films are overwhelmingly based on folk tales. of course they are folk tales of a different character. but this conversation concerns the current popularity of superhero films, of which nick fury or the punisher are not a part. they have nothing like the totemic resonance of a super or batman and indeed are closer to action anti heroes.

fokse vektaire xeven:

Do you view all mythical/archetypal fiction (historical or otherwise) as similarly childish and uninteresting?

that's a hard question to answer as i'm not sure exactly what you mean, but no i wouldn't say that, and i'm definitely interested in actual myths and folk tales. superheroes are pretty fucking silly though, i don't think that's too controversial a statement.

 

[IdleRich]

"if you think there's no value in ever taking a general view that precludes all but specific discussion, and the fact is these narratives vary little and can be talked about of a piece. if you disagree there's simply no discussion to have. "

I think you've mixed yourself up a bit there.
Anyway, my point is, various people have suggested various superheroes that fail to fit the mold but you've bent over backwards to include them or shrunk the field over which you are theorising to disqualify them from counting. Other people have suggested other types of heroes that fit the mold equally well and you've gone through the same distortions in the other direction to argue that they don't.
A much better (as in more reasonable though obviously not as dramatic) position for you to take would be something along the lines of "a number of super hero type characters (and some non-superhero characters as well) follow narratives that show a strong similarity to some Greek myths - perhaps this says something about the way a lot of people are looking for the same thing in their fictions and it tells us a little about a small subsection of humanity".

 

[droid]

sorry- didn't mean to be snippy. it's just with the current availability of the kind of comics i enjoy i'm a lot more likely to be found reading them, having read superhero comics for want of being able to get hold of much else as a kid. now i'm out of that desert i like to stay out

I can understand that. I had a similar experience, and have only started reading mainstream American comics again recently (mailnly cos I can get them for free!), but I cant recommend survivor enough. Its got a weird sort of resonance - whenever I read or see superheroes I think of it - its the ultimate 'anti'-superhero story in a way.

Ill see if I can dig it out and scan it. Its pretty ancient at this stage.

well, kung - fu films are overwhelmingly based on folk tales. of course they are folk tales of a different character. but this conversation concerns the current popularity of superhero films, of which nick fury or the punisher are not a part. they have nothing like the totemic resonance of a super or batman and indeed are closer to action anti heroes.

The Punisher film was mildly successful. We'll have to see how the nick fury film does when it comes out next year I guess. Iron man did quite well though no?

But yeah. point taken.