High profiles murders in the U.S: what is going on?

[nomadthethird]

Maybe it's always been this bad, but in the past people refused to acknowledge that it was happening at all, sort of like they did with domestic violence, date rape, and molestation in general.

 

[STN]

I remember hearing about that; is syracuse a large county?

 

[Shonx]

Maybe it's always been this bad, but in the past people refused to acknowledge that it was happening at all, sort of like they did with domestic violence, date rape, and molestation in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Dennis_Jurgens

This one I was talking about upthread - I've got the feeling that the serial killer that was hunted down in the Dead Zone book was based on what this kid would have been like if he grew up

"Though there was an investigation, society and law enforcement of the mid-1960s did not accept the concept that a child in a middle-class home could be the target of abuse. It would have been difficult at the time to prove that Lois Jurgens had committed murder. In spite of extensive physical evidence pointing towards severe abuse, the medical examiner did not classify the death under any of standard classifications of accident, suicide or murder; he simply marked it "deferred.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Likens

This girl was gradually tortured to death by her guardian, her partner and her children and even quite a lot of kids from the neighbourhood

"Likens was then accused of spreading rumors through Arsenal Technical High School of Stephanie and Paula being prostitutes, which was false. That supposedly prompted Stephanie's boyfriend, Coy Hubbard, to physically attack Likens. Mrs. Baniszewski encouraged Hubbard and other neighborhood children to torment Likens, including, among other things, putting cigarettes out on her skin and forcing her to remove her clothes and insert a Coke bottle into her vagina.[4]

After Likens admitted stealing a gym suit, without which she was unable to attend gym class, Baniszewski pulled her out of school and did not allow her to leave the house. When Likens accidently urinated in her bed, she was then locked in the cellar and forbidden to use the toilet. Later, she was forced to consume her own feces and urine. Baniszewski began to carve the words "I Am A Prostitute And Proud Of It." into Sylvia's stomach with a heated needle, although Richard Hobbs finished the carving when Baniszewski couldn't.[4]"

Both from 1965 although six months apart. The second spawned two films "the Girl Next Door" and "An American Crime" which to be honest I find quite disturbing in itself - something doesn't sit right about this being used as entertainment (even in the loosest sense of the word).

 

[nomadthethird]

I remember hearing about that; is syracuse a large county?

Well, the city itself is mid-sized but the crime rate is quite high for a city of its size and there's plenty of poverty. As for the county, I think it's also mid-sized for NY but with a high population density.

I was surprised to hear that this guy was actually a wealthy eccentric, since there aren't too many of those in central NY.

 

[nomadthethird]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Dennis_Jurgens

This one I was talking about upthread - I've got the feeling that the serial killer that was hunted down in the Dead Zone book was based on what this kid would have been like if he grew up

"Though there was an investigation, society and law enforcement of the mid-1960s did not accept the concept that a child in a middle-class home could be the target of abuse. It would have been difficult at the time to prove that Lois Jurgens had committed murder. In spite of extensive physical evidence pointing towards severe abuse, the medical examiner did not classify the death under any of standard classifications of accident, suicide or murder; he simply marked it "deferred.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Likens

This girl was gradually tortured to death by her guardian, her partner and her children and even quite a lot of kids from the neighbourhood

"Likens was then accused of spreading rumors through Arsenal Technical High School of Stephanie and Paula being prostitutes, which was false. That supposedly prompted Stephanie's boyfriend, Coy Hubbard, to physically attack Likens. Mrs. Baniszewski encouraged Hubbard and other neighborhood children to torment Likens, including, among other things, putting cigarettes out on her skin and forcing her to remove her clothes and insert a Coke bottle into her vagina.[4]

After Likens admitted stealing a gym suit, without which she was unable to attend gym class, Baniszewski pulled her out of school and did not allow her to leave the house. When Likens accidently urinated in her bed, she was then locked in the cellar and forbidden to use the toilet. Later, she was forced to consume her own feces and urine. Baniszewski began to carve the words "I Am A Prostitute And Proud Of It." into Sylvia's stomach with a heated needle, although Richard Hobbs finished the carving when Baniszewski couldn't.[4]"

Both from 1965 although six months apart. The second spawned two films "the Girl Next Door" and "An American Crime" which to be honest I find quite disturbing in itself - something doesn't sit right about this being used as entertainment (even in the loosest sense of the word).

You're right, I don't know what's creepier--the fact that these things happen, or the fact that they're often dramatized and submitted to the public for entertainment purposes.

There's something hysterical about all of the sex crime fighting TV shows, the sheer number and the importance of depicting the absolute horror that we normal people feel in the face of violence and abuse. It's a little transparent, the spectacle that's made of the "moral" response.

 

[Shonx]

You're right, I don't know what's creepier--the fact that these things happen, or the fact that they're often dramatized and submitted to the public for entertainment purposes.

There's something hysterical about all of the sex crime fighting TV shows, the sheer number and the importance of depicting the absolute horror that we normal people feel in the face of violence and abuse. It's a little transparent, the spectacle that's made of the "moral" response.

I was looking at the imdb page for American Crime and the amount of kids who seem to have adopted the tragedy so they can feel sad for her, even though it's clearly about 20 years before the majority of them was born is quite creepy.

I mean these things are fascinating from a sociological or psychological point of view, but when reproduced and commodified it doesn't seem to fulfil any purpose apart from voyeurism and emotional pornography.

Frank Furedi wrote an interesting article on the ever-growing market of abuse porn published under the guise of "survivor stories"

http://www.frankfuredi.com/index.php/site/article/7/

 

[STN]

You're right, I don't know what's creepier--the fact that these things happen, or the fact that they're often dramatized and submitted to the public for entertainment purposes.

This reminds me of something someone (I think it was Joan Smith; it could have been Alan Moore) about the Yorkshire police receiving hundreds of letters around the time of the Peter Sutcliffe murders: "I almost don't know what is more disturbing; that there was a man murdering women, or that there were hundreds of men fantasizing about it".

 

[zhao]

I've just been thinking lately about how the sociopath is the ultimate capitalist hero, really the embodiment of everything capitalism stands for (not an original idea but interesting to me at least).

very obvious but worth a mention:

i would tend to agree that a lot of the values and social norms promoted in our society, and indeed the very structure of this society, philosophically as well as practically, will be just completely INSANE to future historians.

i do also, like many of you, wonder about comparisons of per capita violent crime and serial cases in different cultures. especially ones where "traditional" social and familial institutions are perceived to be more or less intact or well preserved, compared to ones where such things are perceived to be in more of a fragmented and broken down state. i would think that it is easier for neurosis to fester into pathology in a more "alienated" society versus one where there is more cohesion...

(creepy the realization that much of what ive just said above echo the rhetoric of the fundamentalist right )

 

[Shonx]

i would tend to agree that a lot of the values and social norms promoted in our society, and indeed the very structure of this society, philosophically as well as practically, will be just completely INSANE to future historians.

I think BEE was spot on with American Psycho, still one of my favourite satires by miles. Was chatting on another board and the idea came up that in a lot of ways, being a psychopath in today's society is actually quite an advantage if one is to follow paths to power, whether this be corporate, political or otherwise - lacking empathy, superficial charm, disregard for the welfare of others, over-inflated sense of self and other points on the anti-social checklist are all quite handy in terms of being "successful" in capitalist terms.

You could also check the book "Snakes in Suits" about psychopaths in business by Robert Hare, who also wrote "Without Conscience", which seems to be the bible of all things psycho

 

[Mr. Tea]

i do also, like many of you, wonder about comparisons of per capita violent crime and serial cases in different cultures. especially ones where "traditional" social and familial institutions are perceived to be more or less intact or well preserved, compared to ones where such things are perceived to be in more of a fragmented and broken down state. i would think that it is easier for neurosis to fester into pathology in a more "alienated" society versus one where there is more cohesion...

(creepy the realization that much of what ive just said above echo the rhetoric of the fundamentalist right )

On the other hand there could well be much higher levels of all kinds of domestic nastiness - up to and including murder, infanticide and the like - that gets reported but ignored, or not even reported, or otherwise hushed up, in just those "traditional" societies you mention, where family values rule supreme. Especially in societies which (for better or worse) haven't gone through a big counterculture phase with its emphasis on all things individual. Now you can argue than in the long run this has tended to make Western societies that much more selfish, vain and consumeristic, and I wouldn't wholly disagree, but it has also had the effect of making people much more aware of their rights (and has helped create entirely new legal rights) and of the rights of others, I think. It's certainly helped break down very long-standing taboos against things like homosexuality and mixed-race relationships, wouldn't you say?

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think BEE was spot on with American Psycho, still one of my favourite satires by miles. Was chatting on another board and the idea came up that in a lot of ways, being a psychopath in today's society is actually quite an advantage if one is to follow paths to power, whether this be corporate, political or otherwise - lacking empathy, superficial charm, disregard for the welfare of others, over-inflated sense of self and other points on the anti-social checklist are all quite handy in terms of being "successful" in capitalist terms.

You could also check the book "Snakes in Suits" about psychopaths in business by Robert Hare, who also wrote "Without Conscience", which seems to be the bible of all things psycho

Yeah, great book. Another thing I liked about it is that Bateman's penchant for dismembering prostitutes is virtually the only thing that separates him from his peers (whom he universally loathes, of course) - they're all basically just the same, which helps make it such a good satire of an entire culture.

 

[Shonx]

Yeah, great book. Another thing I liked about it is that Bateman's penchant for dismembering prostitutes is virtually the only thing that separates him from his peers (whom he universally loathes, of course) - they're all basically just the same, which helps make it such a good satire of an entire culture.

Yeah, the identity (or lack of) for each individual character is fascinating, everyone in the book seems to be their job/their favourite restaurant/their income/"their" taste (as defined by GQ if I remember right) - remember reading an interview with BEE where he described writing this at a very angry time in his life a lot of which was aimed at his father's values, a guy who by all accounts loved his status brands yet had little understanding of why or if they were actually better. Making anger seep out of such emotionless prose is still one of the reasons I rate BEE so highly - great social commentator (worth reading Glamorama for the celeb-fixated culture of the late 90's and onwards)

 

[nomadthethird]

Yeah, great book. Another thing I liked about it is that Bateman's penchant for dismembering prostitutes is virtually the only thing that separates him from his peers (whom he universally loathes, of course) - they're all basically just the same, which helps make it such a good satire of an entire culture.

I read American Psycho so long ago that I don't really remember it, but I do know that in the film there was quite an interesting emphasis on homoerotic tension/subtext. Funny but we'd probably not associate metrosexuals like Patrick Bateman with this kind of deep psychological disturbance anymore, would we? I suppose now to call someone a metrosexual is an attempt to neuter them more than anything, as gender norms become more rigid even as they're supposedly "evolving"...

Maybe straight men are becoming more "gay" (metrosexuals buy more, after all) in the Freudian sense--narcissism is a major factor (of 3) that Freud believes are common to homosexuals.

But I like Kohut on narcissism best.

 

[nomadthethird]

This reminds me of something someone (I think it was Joan Smith; it could have been Alan Moore) about the Yorkshire police receiving hundreds of letters around the time of the Peter Sutcliffe murders: "I almost don't know what is more disturbing; that there was a man murdering women, or that there were hundreds of men fantasizing about it".

Exactly. I question my own interest in abnormal psychology sometimes--it's hard to exempt myself from this same fantastic attachment to these "horrifying" acts that I find rather ugly in others. Is it because I simply can't understand but want to, or because actually I can and do, and use them to get my impulses satisfied secondhand? If so, it's harder to play "spot the monster"...

When it comes to men fantisizing about others' sex/violent crimes, you can never underestimate the power of the rescue fantasy that seems central to heterosexuality (at least on the male side). How many fairytales and stories and films and books are premised on the idea that women need to be "saved" by archetypal male protectors. Why does every little boy of a certain age want to be a cop or a firefighter? Many people think serial killers hate women so much because as women slowly make gains in the world and are allowed to take on traditionally "male" roles, they feel increasingly emasculated and basically blame women for symbolically castrating them. If he can't feel as if he "possesses" or dominates a woman through intercourse, he'll possess/dominate her through the violent (and obviously equally sexual) act of killing her.

I think the increase in rights/social gains women have made actually contributes to men turning to children (pedophilia) in order to preserve the traditional male role or "deflowerer", ruiner of sexual innocence, sexual dominator, rescuer of the weak, etc. Basically sexual paternalism. The Almighty Father is a pretty powerful figure for some people.

 

[nomadthethird]

Winslow Homer anyone?

 

[nomadthethird]

I think BEE was spot on with American Psycho, still one of my favourite satires by miles. Was chatting on another board and the idea came up that in a lot of ways, being a psychopath in today's society is actually quite an advantage if one is to follow paths to power, whether this be corporate, political or otherwise - lacking empathy, superficial charm, disregard for the welfare of others, over-inflated sense of self and other points on the anti-social checklist are all quite handy in terms of being "successful" in capitalist terms.

You could also check the book "Snakes in Suits" about psychopaths in business by Robert Hare, who also wrote "Without Conscience", which seems to be the bible of all things psycho

I've actually heard psychologists/psychiatrists speak who believe that sociopathy is highly valued in our society, and that there are many non-violent sociopaths (whose environment was less traumatic and unstable than that of violent sociopaths) who rise to the upper eschalons. These types are much better than people with empathy are at firing people without considering their life circumstances, stepping over people for a promotion, character assassinating others to make them look bad at work, etc.

 

[Shonx]

I think the increase in rights/social gains women have made actually contributes to men turning to children (pedophilia) in order to preserve the traditional male role or "deflowerer", ruiner of sexual innocence, sexual dominator, rescuer of the weak, etc. Basically sexual paternalism. The Almighty Father is a pretty powerful figure for some people.

I think that's incorrect to be honest, paedophilia isn't usually a standby, it's mostly something that's done because the person has a paraphilia for sex with children.

Also child prostitution was prevalent in Victorian society and women were far from equality then. Thailand springs to mind as another example

 

[Shonx]

I've actually heard psychologists/psychiatrists speak who believe that sociopathy is highly valued in our society, and that there are many non-violent sociopaths (whose environment was less traumatic and unstable than that of violent sociopaths) who rise to the upper eschalons. These types are much better than people with empathy are at firing people without considering their life circumstances, stepping over people for a promotion, character assassinating others to make them look bad at work, etc.

I've been fascinated lately thinking that a lot of people in power and actually setting down an awful lot of regulations, laws and limiting a lot of lifestyle options (career, money, security vs pursuing own interests, poverty and unemployability) couldn't actually give a shit that these decisions cause any hardship or don't respect human potential. This is why I'm leading more towards demolishing heirarchies so these abuses don't happen in the first place, cause let's face it, sociopaths are far too highly represented in the upper ranks.

 

[Shonx]

Obviously when I say "demolishing heirarchies" I mean pointing out the inherent potential for abuse rather than donning my "Smash the State" t-shirt and shouting at policemen

 

[zhao]

I've been fascinated lately thinking that a lot of people in power and actually setting down an awful lot of regulations, laws and limiting a lot of lifestyle options (career, money, security vs pursuing own interests, poverty and unemployability) couldn't actually give a shit that these decisions cause any hardship or don't respect human potential. This is why I'm leading more towards demolishing heirarchies so these abuses don't happen in the first place, cause let's face it, sociopaths are far too highly represented in the upper ranks. ... when I say "demolishing heirarchies" I mean pointing out the inherent potential for abuse

how many have you had? step away from the computer, close your eyes, and place your index on your nose...

i don't understand why the fact that law makers don't give a shit about how their laws affect people's lives is "fascinating"? isn't that just normal? and how does "pointing out the inherent potential for abuse", in the system presumably, amount to a "demolishing of heirarchies"?

and Nomad, i'm not sure that Feminism or the Women's Movement can be so readily cited as a direct factor of what sets serial killers off, or a, main or even secondary, reason for hatred of women... besides Shonx' example of child porn being popular way before the 1960s, misogyny of course have existed for millenia... i do think it is a symptom of patriarchy and the oedipal universe it engenders, but the relationship is much deeper than you described...