Jeremy Corbyn

[droid]

But to look at it the other way, if you've been vocally critical of US actions in South and Central America during the Cold War, shouldn't you be equally critical of Russian "preemptive self defence" in Eastern Europe now?

The fact that Western governments and media are inconsistent one way doesn't oblige you to be inconsistent the opposite way.

Its such an obvious truth that I dont think it needs repeating, but the primary responsibility of journalists and activists is to call their own governments to account. If your only concern is the official enemy then you are Pravda.

This is also a moral truism. You are primarily responsible for your own actions and the actions of those over whom you have influence.

So this point is completely backward. Journalists have an obligation foremost to critique their own societies. The caricature of the self hating intellectual who blames their own government far all of the ills in the world and absolves everyone else of all crimes is a mostly mythical creation of propaganda systems, and one of the laziest and most common slurs. It almost universally works the other way around.

 

[droid]

All these countries have been invaded/ovccupied by Russia repeatedly in their past. Not surprising they have different views than you, namely that NATO to them means protection instead of provocation.

"Hey guys, Russia has been a historic threat to our security - whats the best way to deal with them?"

"I know - why dont we host a missile defense system, designed to allow the West to launch a first strike against Russia whilst neutralising their response, therefore acting as a massive provocation to a dangerous regime but offering us absolutely no protection in the event of a conflict."

"Brilliant. What could go wrong?"

 

[firefinga]

"Hey guys, Russia has been a historic threat to our security - whats the best way to deal with them?"

"I know - why dont we host a missile defense system, designed to allow the West to launch a first strike against Russia whilst neutralising their response, therefore acting as a massive provocation to a dangerous regime but offering us absolutely no protection in the event of a conflict."

"Brilliant. What could go wrong?"

And your point here is? Face it, the majority, possibly a vast majority of the citizens in these countries consider NATO a protective force, despite your ignorance of those poeple's mistrust of Russia - and looking at the history, rightly so.

 

[droid]

Hungary 1956, Berlin Wall Crisis, Crushing of the Chech uprising of '68, Aethiopia (Mengistu), Poland 1981, Afghanistan 1979-1988, The Baltic states, arming Egypt, The Iraq, Syria ....

yeah a model of rapant restraint indeed.

Youve left out several minor African conflicts there as well, espionage, assassination etc. but lets look at the most egregious examples of direct intervention as a basic indicator.

Hungary: 2500 dead
Czechoslovakia: 72 dead
Afghanistan 1.5 million dead

The US during the same period - by no means an exhaustive list:

Angola, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Iran, Guatemala, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Zaire, British Guiana, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Panama, Libya, Libya (again), Iraq, Iraq (again), Greece, East Timor, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Grenada, Afghanistan, Haiti, Yugoslavia, Somalia, Sudan, Angola, Chad, Guatemala, Honduras, South Africa, Lebanon, Laos, Puerto Rico, Oman, Yemen, Syria.

The casualties from just one of these conflicts - Vietnam 5 million+ dwarfs the total of all direct Soviet interventions. In fact the number of people who have died from unexploded ordnance or poisoning by chemical agents in Vietnam SINCE the war ended dwarfs the numbers of dead in hungary and Czechoslovakia.

We could continue to discuss the reckless provocations by NATO and the US including the U2 spy program, Able Archer (which nearly killed us all), placing of missiles in turkey which provoked the Cuban missile crisis...


But you'll notice I put the word 'COMPARATIVELY' in huge letters, so Im surprised you didnt notice.

 

[droid]

And your point here is? Face it, the majority, possibly a vast majority of the citizens in these countries consider NATO a protective force, despite your ignorance of those poeple's mistrust of Russia - and looking at the history, rightly so.

lol. OK.

 

[firefinga]

Youve left out several minor African conflicts there as well, espionage, assassination etc.

But you'll notice I put the word 'COMPARATIVELY' in huge letters, so Im surprised you didnt notice.

I didn't leave anything out, I merely stopped listing - that's where the "..." come into play. As well as I refrained from listing body counts. If we wanna go there, Mao's China is clearly taking the crown.

I did notice, but I consider the COMPARATIVELY a somewhat apologetic strategy I don't buy.

At least you seem to concede the USSR (itself a higly imperialist state) wasn't at all a hippie Commune.

 

[droid]

You actually know nothing at all about history do you?

Can you conceive of the idea that one may be well aware of the myriad of crimes committed by the USSR, perhaps the greatest of which are the crimes against the people of Russia itself, whilst also concluding that the crimes of the US exceed them? Is that within your capability?

But please, continue to list the crimes of the official enemy whilst ignoring the far worse crimes of the West.

 

[Sectionfive]

Face it, the majority, possibly a vast majority of the citizens in these countries consider NATO a protective force

Even if this was true it would have sweet fuck all to do with NATO's intentions or scrutiny of them.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Its such an obvious truth that I dont think it needs repeating, but the primary responsibility of journalists and activists is to call their own governments to account. If your only concern is the official enemy then you are Pravda.

So it's the solemn moral obligation of a British-domiciled Australian to blame the USA and most of Eastern Europe for allegedly bringing the world to the brink of WWIII? Endlessly regurgitating Putin's own propaganda - now that makes you Pravda. Except, a sort of Pravda that is for some reason taken seriously by a worrying number of British people who apparently consider themselves "left-wing" and "anti-imperialist".

The caricature of the self hating intellectual who blames their own government far all of the ills in the world and absolves everyone else of all crimes is a mostly mythical creation of propaganda systems, and one of the laziest and most common slurs.

Bullshit. You can read it in the Guardian on an almost daily basis. Putin's programme to re-establish the Soviet empire is entirely defensive and entirely the fault of America and those countries in eastern Europe who for some weird reason would rather have stronger links with western Europe and the USA than be reabsorbed by the country that has threatened - or trampled underfoot - their national sovereignty for centuries. Citizens of France - a country whose government not only refused to be involved in the invasion of Iraq but vociferously opposed it - are somehow justified targets for jihadis on account of belonging to that monolithic bloc called "The West". And every other bad thing happening in the world is the fault of Israel, obviously.

This isn't a straw man, it's there and it's absolutely endemic to how much of the "left" thinks.

 

[trza]

I thought we were talking about Jeremy Corby and his choice for a press secretary. If he answers every question with some list of Western Atrocities or shows up to work in a Che Guevera t-shirt.......

 

[droid]

Right. Ive let you away with it so far. Quotes and examples please to illustrate this endemic, self hating, monster absolving, victim blaming strain of leftism.

Bullshit. You can read it in the Guardian on an almost daily basis. Putin's programme to re-establish the Soviet empire is entirely defensive and entirely the fault of America and those countries in eastern Europe who for some weird reason would rather have stronger links with western Europe and the USA than be reabsorbed by the country that has threatened - or trampled underfoot - their national sovereignty for centuries. Citizens of France - a country whose government not only refused to be involved in the invasion of Iraq but vociferously opposed it - are somehow justified targets for jihadis on account of belonging to that monolithic bloc called "The West". And every other bad thing happening in the world is the fault of Israel, obviously.

And seriously. You can conduct yourself better than this. You've gone from criticizing Milne without anything to support your claims, segued into some apocryphal Pilger, and now you're channeling a Telegraph editorial.

Rant all you like, but its not a good argument. In fact, its not even an argument.

 

[droid]

Even if this was true it would have sweet fuck all to do with NATO's intentions or scrutiny of them.

Yeah, this is why only 49% of Poles think that the US would support them if Russia attacked, and only 48% would support a military action if Russia DID attack.

But lets not let facts get in the way of Eastern Europeans basking under the beneficent cloak of NATO protection.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Right. Ive let you away with it so far. Quotes and examples please to illustrate this endemic, self hating, monster absolving, victim blaming strain of leftism.

Well there's fair few in here, for a start: http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...eve-jeremy-corbyn-i-cant-believe-seumas-milne - but what else do you expect from a mouthpiece for reactionary neoliberal hegemony like the New Statesman, eh.

[cue detailed character assassination of the piece's author]

 

[Mr. Tea]

You can conduct yourself better than this.

And a hearty lol at this, coming from someone who'd prefer to play Genocide Top Trumps.

 

[droid]

Ahaha. Oliver Bullough. I was just reading this earlier.

Would you be surprised to learn that I met him a few years back when he spoke at the launch of my mate Naphta's album about Chechnya? Nice guy. His book on the Caucasus is excellent, hes a very good journalist and he knows a lot about Russia, but he's also very conservative wrt 'geopolitics', with a very traditional establishment view of media. I asked him about the Russian apartment bombings and how they had affected Putin's image and he dismissed the whole thing as conspiracy theory - yknow, those same bombings during which FSB agents were caught red handed with a basement full of explosives and which sparked the 2nd Chechnan war?

He was also banging the 'Corbyn is anti-semetic' drum not so long ago. Brilliant journalist, crap political commentator, and not to be trusted in that arena IMHO.


Feel free to post an example of an actual article btw. After all, the guardian publishes them every day doesnt it?

 

[firefinga]

Yeah, this is why only 49% of Poles think that the US would support them if Russia attacked, and only 48% would support a military action if Russia DID attack.

But lets not let facts get in the way of Eastern Europeans basking under the beneficent cloak of NATO protection.

See here:

http://trends.gmfus.org/transatlantic-trends/country-profiles-2014/country-profiles-poland-2014/

The following copy n pasted from the above link

TRANSATLANTIC SECURITY COOPERATION

The number of respondents in Poland who felt that NATO is still essential for their country’s security increased dramatically from 2013, by 15 percentage points to 62%. Eighty-two percent of Polish respondents said that NATO should be engaged in the territorial defense of Europe. Fifty-eight percent of Poles said that NATO should provide arms and training to help other countries defend themselves, while 52% of European respondents disagreed. But when Ukraine was mentioned, Polish support dropped somewhat, to 52%. Poles were split on out-of-area operations by NATO, with 43% saying the alliance should conduct such operations, and 42% said it should not. Fifty-two percent of Poles, however, said NATO should attempt to establish stability in places like Afghanistan.

Polish respondents showed the most favorable opinion of Ukraine in the entire survey (56%). Poland was among the countries with the most respondents in favor of providing economic and political support to Ukraine even if it risks increasing conflict with Russia (67%, second only to Sweden’s 73%). Sixty-three percent of Poles supported offering NATO membership to Ukraine (EU average: 46% in favor and 47% opposed). Polish respondents also registered the highest support for offering EU membership to Ukraine (69%), as opposed to 52% of Europeans. When asked about economic support for Ukraine, Polish respondents were also more enthusiastic than the European average(78% of Poles, compared to 68% of Europeans). Poland was the only country in which a majority (52%) supported sending military supplies and equipment to Ukraine. Seventy-seven percent of Poles supported stronger economic sanctions against Russia, the highest support registered for this option.

 

[firefinga]

You actually know nothing at all about history do you?

But please, continue to list the crimes of the official enemy

I carry a university degree in history so I know a lot about history.

The post I took the liberty to reply to was about russia/USSR and not "The West". I have no "official enemy".

 

[firefinga]

So it's the solemn moral obligation of a British-domiciled Australian to blame the USA and most of Eastern Europe for allegedly bringing the world to the brink of WWIII? Endlessly regurgitating Putin's own propaganda - now that makes you Pravda. Except, a sort of Pravda that is for some reason taken seriously by a worrying number of British people who apparently consider themselves "left-wing" and "anti-imperialist".



Bullshit. You can read it in the Guardian on an almost daily basis. Putin's programme to re-establish the Soviet empire is entirely defensive and entirely the fault of America and those countries in eastern Europe who for some weird reason would rather have stronger links with western Europe and the USA than be reabsorbed by the country that has threatened - or trampled underfoot - their national sovereignty for centuries. Citizens of France - a country whose government not only refused to be involved in the invasion of Iraq but vociferously opposed it - are somehow justified targets for jihadis on account of belonging to that monolithic bloc called "The West". And every other bad thing happening in the world is the fault of Israel, obviously.

This isn't a straw man, it's there and it's absolutely endemic to how much of the "left" thinks.

Nailed it.

Since France gets mentioned, an interesting sidenote: the "Anti-Imperialists" have a funny blind spot regarding the French. After all, the only Western country still maintaining actual colonies in 2015, and conducting military interventions in Africa roughly every three years.

Apparently, if the French do it, it's of no concern.

 

[droid]

See here:

http://trends.gmfus.org/transatlantic-trends/country-profiles-2014/country-profiles-poland-2014/

The following copy n pasted from the above link

TRANSATLANTIC SECURITY COOPERATION

The number of respondents in Poland who felt that NATO is still essential for their country’s security increased dramatically from 2013, by 15 percentage points to 62%. Eighty-two percent of Polish respondents said that NATO should be engaged in the territorial defense of Europe. Fifty-eight percent of Poles said that NATO should provide arms and training to help other countries defend themselves, while 52% of European respondents disagreed. But when Ukraine was mentioned, Polish support dropped somewhat, to 52%. Poles were split on out-of-area operations by NATO, with 43% saying the alliance should conduct such operations, and 42% said it should not. Fifty-two percent of Poles, however, said NATO should attempt to establish stability in places like Afghanistan.

Polish respondents showed the most favorable opinion of Ukraine in the entire survey (56%). Poland was among the countries with the most respondents in favor of providing economic and political support to Ukraine even if it risks increasing conflict with Russia (67%, second only to Sweden’s 73%). Sixty-three percent of Poles supported offering NATO membership to Ukraine (EU average: 46% in favor and 47% opposed). Polish respondents also registered the highest support for offering EU membership to Ukraine (69%), as opposed to 52% of Europeans. When asked about economic support for Ukraine, Polish respondents were also more enthusiastic than the European average(78% of Poles, compared to 68% of Europeans). Poland was the only country in which a majority (52%) supported sending military supplies and equipment to Ukraine. Seventy-seven percent of Poles supported stronger economic sanctions against Russia, the highest support registered for this option.

So what? Here is the relevant quote from the 2015 Pew Survey.

But when it came to committing to upholding Article 5—the alliance’s sacred cow, which requires NATO members to defend an ally if it is attacked—the results were devastating. The Pew poll showed that among Europeans, a median of 49 percent of respondents thought their country should not defend an ally, a response that exposes a lack of commitment to collective defense. Not only that: the majority of Europeans (67 percent), with the surprising exception of the Poles (49 percent), believed the United States would come to the defense of its allies...

...Of the Europeans polled, the Brits were the most in favor of the use of force to defend their allies (49 percent). As for the Poles, of whom a whopping 70 percent saw Russia as a major military threat to neighboring countries, only 48 percent of those surveyed supported military action in case of an attack.

http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=60389

 

[droid]

I carry a university degree in history so I know a lot about history.

The post I took the liberty to reply to was about russia/USSR and not "The West". I have no "official enemy".

Ahaha. Really? Stop carrying it and give it back to whoever owns it.