vimothy
yurp
Actually, this is hardly a swear word.
Rock Against Racism '08
- Thread starter martin
- Start date
Actually, this is hardly a swear word.
john eden
male pale and stale
Quite large, if I remember the stats. They were polling pretty respectable numbers I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Front
20,000 members in 1974
Stood for 303 seats in 1979 general election.
---
Couple of points - the wiki page attributes the collapse to Thatcher and the (collapse of?) ANL but also John Tyndall bankrupting the party by standing 303 candidates, many with no accompanying electioneering.
My understanding is that the BNP is in a much healthier position now than the NF was in the late 70s - for example they are beating mainstream parties in local elections as a matter of routine, and have a small but significant number of local councillors.
vimothy
yurp
I think we can all agree that it can be a very hateful word if used with that intent. One only has to listen to some misogynistic industrial ranting (Whitehouse, Brainbomb, etc) to hear "cunt" as a derogatory, anti-female insult.
That said, it doesn't have to be. I don't ever hear it used in that context in my day-to-day life. Mostly (like swearing in general), it's a term of affection. "Oi, you big cunt! How the hell are you?"
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
john eden
male pale and stale
vimothy
yurp
Interesting -- weird that Thatcher can be a (neo) liberal and an anti-liberal at the same time!
What do you think is the cause of the rise of the BNP (beyond the obvious)? I guess that mainstream parties just ignore this type of thing and this demographic...
john eden
male pale and stale
I think the Tory party has always had a weird division between outright libertarians and bigots basically. And of course opportunists who play to both camps...
I think BNP are doing so well because the mainstream parties have been pandering to middle england / middle class votes and this has created a vacuum. And the BNP have filled that vacumm by going out to people who don't feel their problems are being addressed by mainstream politicians...
Meanwhile the left have been more concerned with the problems of people in Iraq and Palestine...
vimothy
yurp
God, it'd be a bit easier if they just gave you the totals. As a percentage of the total vote, how much did the NF get overall? And the same question, re the BNP.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Come on, surely it's not that hard to grasp that you can be economically liberal and socially illiberal, is it?
john eden
male pale and stale
I know what you mean! I'll try and have a dig.
vimothy
yurp
Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I mean, you might well be right, but I feel uneasy about such broad generalisations. It reminds me of the kind of discourse that currently surrounds McCain's economic policies on mainstream econ blogs. "Faith based economics" etc. You know the kind of thing -- my enemy is either a tool or a liar, but my camp are naturally very different.
(Full disclosure: I have never voted Conservative and don't intend to start now. However, I would do so if I thought that it was worth it).
Sounds true to me. How can you reach angry white working class people who think that they should get first dibs on council houses and more benefits?
[Sorry -- that's probably a generalisation as well...]
john eden
male pale and stale
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/index.php?link=template&story=218
There is a risk of comparing apples and pears I think as the wiki page for the NF is for parliament, whereas the data above is for local elections.
But looking at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party_election_results
I think it's pretty clear the BNP are doing better than the NF did then.
vimothy
yurp
It was really a bit of a playful dig aimed at John -- but for the record, it's not possible to be a "neo-liberal", i.e. a classical liberal, and socially illiberal at the same time.
Of course, it is possible to be economically liberal and socially illiberal (US conservatives), just as it's possible to be economically illiberal and socially liberal (US liberals). It's a mad old world...
john eden
male pale and stale
It probably is a generalisation but you only have to look at the pro and anti- euro tories to see that there is a fair bit of variation in views there.
Well the traditional left (like 30 years ago? longer?) would have got around this by emphasising class over race, and organising collective campaigns to improve the housing situation for working class people as whole.
Things are so fucked up now I don't really know where to start, but the approach I am talking about (and a lot of the analysis) comes from the Independent Working Class Association - http://www.iwca.info which emerged out of anti-fascist discussions in the mid 90s about the new direction for the BNP.
john eden
male pale and stale
The NF are basically irrelevant I think, as with the other fringe far right groups. They sort of exist for people who think the BNP is too soft*, or who have fallen out with them.
*Ha ha - or not "pure" enough...
vimothy
yurp
No, I agree that there is variation. I was just unsure if I would describe the variation as being between bigots and libertarians. Seems too easy to me. You might be right though. What the hell do I know?
Obviously not my bag, so I feel unsure of how I feel about this. That said, you're right about this,
And the need to do something different.
crackerjack
Well-known member
The NF won more votes than the Liberals in the 1975 (I think) local elections in the places where they stood.
Re rise of BNP, they've taken enormous care to moderate their thug image (although they can never quite lose it) and curb their wilder policies. They no longer propose forced repatriation of all non-whites and the days when their leaders do TV interviews surrounded by pics of Hitler (as Tyndall did) are long gone.
john eden
male pale and stale
They've also ditched the holocaust revisionism afaik. Used to sell books and mags about that from their shop in South London (this was early 90s?). No doubt many of the hardcore are still believers but it's the mark of a fringe nutjob so you can see why it wouldn't be public policy.