Labour Splitters

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
maduro was democratically elected?
So were the Nazis?

Winning one election legitimately (and there are many who say he didn't even do that) doesn't mean any subsequent election is necessarily legitimate. His re-election last year is widely regarded as a sham.

In any case, being elected is hardly an ethical stamp of approval in and of itself. Bolsanaro was elected president of Brazil last year, and seems to be moving in a similar direction to Maduro with regards to dismantling democracy altogether and installing himself as dictator - in fact he's been quite open about it.
 

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
So were the Nazis?

Winning one election legitimately (and there are many who say he didn't even do that) doesn't mean any subsequent election is necessarily legitimate. His re-election last year is widely regarded as a sham.

In any case, being elected is hardly an ethical stamp of approval in and of itself. Bolsanaro was elected president of Brazil last year, and seems to be moving in a similar direction to Maduro with regards to dismantling democracy altogether and installing himself as dictator - in fact he's been quite open about it.
fair enough, tho hitler only won around 30% of the votes i believe. what makes maduro a dictator according to you then? where do you read about abductions, torture and murder carried out by maduro?
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
This whole discussion illustrates pretty well that an "ethical foreign policy" is a logical impossibility if your primary concerns are ideological-geopolitical and not humanitarian. Either side of the political axis is as bad as the other in this respect. The Right thinks the end justifies the means in the noble cause of opposing socialism, Russian imperialism and violent fanatical Islam. The Left thinks the end justifies the means in the noble cause of opposing American imperialism, "The West" in general, and Israel. Neither side seems particularly bothered about opposing the use of mass incarceration, torture, rape and murder as a tool of political oppression per se, regardless of the notional ideology of the state or faction involved.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Political realism, innit. Problem is that most states are somewhere on the scale of committing awful abuses, obvs including the British state. You'd be very limited in the alliances that you could make if you only made alliances from an ethical standpoint (btw this is meant as descriptive and v much not as prescriptive)

Re Maduro - this thing about taking sides drives me nuts. Both things can be true - (a) that he's committed terrible human rights abuses and has stockpiled national wealth for himself, and (b) the attempts to unseat him are nothing to do with that, but about neocolonialism/power/oil etc.

Edit: worth mentioning that I had a (brief) Fb argument with Zhao recently about the above (Maduro)
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Another thing that drives me nuts - Europeans/Americans talking about how elections were not legitimately won in other countries, when the elections in their own countries are essentially bought with money (not to mention upcoming gerrymandering etc), only in a more 'sophisticated' way. Also why the idea that Brexit was bought with 'dark money', is the least shocking thing ever. Business as usual, only the money sources and the tech have changed a bit.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Yes, agreed on both points. It's hard to take any kind of informed view on the matter without falling into a nihilistic blanket cynicism.
 

pattycakes_

Active member
Lumet's Serpico is a great metaphor for all of this stuff.

Every layer of the onion.

In Brazil many people see Europe and particularly the UK as a Harry Potter infested utopia where everyone is polite and educated and non of the bad stuff that goes on here exists. I keep trying to tell them that it's the same shit in different clothing. A smile, a handshake and a bunch of papers to obfuscate and redirect the attention while the serious business of dismantling society from within goes on a few mm underneath the thin veil of civility. Germany is the worst for this. I feel like at least Brazilian corruption has integrity. Its right there in your face. Much sneakier to dress it up as something dignified imo.

There's no winning. The maggots are having their final banquets. We can only stand and watch.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
...only in a more 'sophisticated' way...
Yeah, this is something I've thought for a while now. I mean plenty of countries are openly and blatantly ultra-corrupt, the sort of place where a candidate is so unbelievably popular that he actually gets over 100% of the vote, and where corruption still means shady men in long coats exchanging bulging brown envelopes on park benches, and opposition politicians or government-critical journalists accidentally brutally cutting their own heads off while eating breakfast. And this is business as usual for pretty much the whole world outside of the developed Western nations, Japan and a small handful of other countries.

But when you consider how political decisions are made in the UK at the highest level, it just makes all that stuff look thoroughly amateur. Consider the likes of Aaron Banks, Cambridge Analytica, funds (which are always "contributions" and never "bribes") funnelled through shell company after shell company, from Guernsey to the Caimans and back again, and all these "think tanks" that supposedly offer "advice" to governments but are actually just special-interest pressure groups in all but name - surely the worst of these is the so-called Taxpayers' Alliance, which if half of what I've read about it is true, would be more accurately called the Tax-Avoiders' Alliance. (In fact I'm not sure of that at all - there may well be much worse examples out there that I, along with 99% of people, am not even aware of.)

It's notable that the UK is apparently one of the least corrupt countries in the world according to the Corruption Perceptions Index - note that middle word!
 
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firefinga

New member
Western Democracies have been designed to be Plutocracies - from the very beginning. American Revolution, French Revolution - both under the umbrella of human rights, or rather - "the rights of man" as they were called, have always been "the rights of the property owning man".
 
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Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Edit: worth mentioning that I had a (brief) Fb argument with Zhao recently about the above (Maduro)
Yeah, Zhao is probably the most extreme example I've ever seen of ideological tribalism trumping any sort of ethical stance - in fact I think I saw the post you're talking about but (for once) decided not to get involved.

He's also a pretty good illustration of the 'horseshoe principle' in action. I remember a year or two ago seeing him posting some conspiracy-theory garbage about how "Obama created ISIS", and wondering whether he was unaware, or simply didn't care, that this is one of the founding myths of the alt-right - ostensibly rather an odd belief for someone who clearly regards himself as the leftiest lefty who ever lefted.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Have you seen the records of these fuckers? Gay re-education, 'hard' on immigration, water privatisation... If that's what is considered moderate, just vote Tory.
Sorry, I only just saw this. I'm not saying that I think they're moderates, I'm disputing what you said about the consensus of opinion being that they are all New Labour Losers. I know that's you think about them, but from looking at comments and stuff it seems that there are as many people who see them as a new, and indeed, moderate party. Er, even if they claim to not be a party.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Sorry I meant blue coated there. um what is that in english... mavi yakali... Blue collar.
And I don't care about the splitters but if labour dies I will not be overjoyed but will sigh in relief. more than an irritating nuisance now.
OK I get you with blue collar.... but if Labour dies then what, just Tories forever?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Interesting though that people are saying this makes a GE more likely. Funny if these guys have precipitated exactly what Corbyn wants.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
A good friend of mine who is Venezuelan and still has family living there was telling me about it recently.
Yes, but just cos he's from Venezuela and presumably knows what's up doesn't mean he's without (possibly even unconscious) bias. His family are extremely wealthy and from what I can work out they were exactly the kind of people that Chavez was against. They made their fortunes in the previous regimes and they want to keep things as they were (or return them), it's perfectly natural they highlight the bad things etc not even untruths, just one side of the story.
ps PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TELL J***E about this post cos I've seen her before when people say anything even mildly like the above. I'm serious here. What happens on dissensus stays on dissensus.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Actually just realised I put this in THOUGHT not POLITICS - apologies for that. Mods feel free to move it.
 

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
Yes, but just cos he's from Venezuela and presumably knows what's up doesn't mean he's without (possibly even unconscious) bias. His family are extremely wealthy and from what I can work out they were exactly the kind of people that Chavez was against. They made their fortunes in the previous regimes and they want to keep things as they were (or return them), it's perfectly natural they highlight the bad things etc not even untruths, just one side of the story.
ps PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TELL J***E about this post cos I've seen her before when people say anything even mildly like the above. I'm serious here. What happens on dissensus stays on dissensus.
it was exactly what i was thinking. it's always those that live abroad, from wealthy families, probably white too, that spread these horror stories of torture, rape and murder. same with cubans living in miami.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Well these horror "stories" seem to be backed up by the likes of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Yes, but just cos he's from Venezuela and presumably knows what's up doesn't mean he's without (possibly even unconscious) bias. His family are extremely wealthy and from what I can work out they were exactly the kind of people that Chavez was against. They made their fortunes in the previous regimes and they want to keep things as they were (or return them), it's perfectly natural they highlight the bad things etc not even untruths, just one side of the story.
ps PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TELL J***E about this post cos I've seen her before when people say anything even mildly like the above. I'm serious here. What happens on dissensus stays on dissensus.
I know M's family is pretty well off but either political dissidents and their families are being incarcerated, tortured and sometimes murdered, or they're not. And reports from international bodies that exist to monitor this sort of thing very much suggest that it is happening.

That may well be 'one side of the story' but it's hard to imagine what other side could possibly exist that could begin to justify it. And it'd be one thing if a Robin Hood president were seizing the wealth of the upper classes to benefit the rest but, as is usually the case, it's the people who were already poor who are suffering most of all.

And yes, obviously I won't say anything to J or M about this.
 

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
Well these horror "stories" seem to be backed up by the likes of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
who finances those organizations? what "human rights" are they advocating? that sentence could have just well read "by the likes of the usa and the eu"

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/06/human-rights-watchs-revolving-door/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/dec/31/human-rights-imperialism-james-hoge
http://www.coha.org/taking-human-rights-watch-to-task/
 
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