The Independent Group

DannyL

Wild Horses
Some friends are talking about exactly the same thing on social media, I just noticed. Lamenting a UK that no longer exists.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
I don't know. I think you can fairly argue that Blair's foreign policy blunders were really heinous, and I understand the hatred when you give that its full weight, as I think we should. On the other, it was a long time ago as you say, that seems to spill out into denoucing everything else that Labour acheived in a really b&w Manchiean way that I can't get on board with, especially when i) the solutions are simplistic - i.e. no foreign policy interventions ever - and would have provably bad effects ii) lots of elements of the domestic legacy were real positives. It's not something I find particularly easy to think about, but that contradctory complexity seems closer to reality. The good guys /bad guys positioning is a lot easier to think with, for sure.
Oh, completely agreed, and I wasn't arguing for him to be exonerated or anything like that - especially seeing as he's never shown a hint of contrition or even acknowledged it as a 'mistake', let alone a crime.

I hear you as well on the pitfalls of this dualistic worldview. I mentioned this a few weeks ago when I wrote about how an "ethical foreign policy" is an impossibility, because the Right in this country reflexively blinds itself to the manifold awfulnesses of Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states, Israel and the USA, while the Left is just as bad about Russia, Iran, Syria and Venezuela. So many people on all sides think in strategic-ideological terms with no humanitarian or ethical concerns except in so far as they can be used as a stick to beat their opponents with. Witness Tommy Robinson's crocodile tears for the victims of the Asian grooming gangs, or StW's apparent compassion for the poor people of Yemen even while they're defending Glorious Leader Assad.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
John Major has writen a book about the English musichall tradition which I really enjoyed. It's called My Old Man 'cos his Dad was some kind of performer, I forget exactly of what type.

NOT BORING ENOUGH JOHN TONE IT DOWN
DOWN
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
No doubt this led to mucho snobbery in the Tory Party. My fave diss of all time is the one levelled against Michael Heseltine by one of those other scumbags: "The problem with Michalel is he had to buy his own furniture". You cant' step to snobbery like that. It's bred in from the DNA up. Only solution is to put heads on pikes.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
John Major has writen a book about the English musichall tradition which I really enjoyed. It's called My Old Man 'cos his Dad was some kind of performer, I forget exactly of what type.
Wasn't he a circus ringleader or something?

Back when things other than terrorist cells and paedophile gangs had 'ringleaders'.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
He was a song and dance man apparently. Also "In July 1903 he and Kitty embarked on a performing tour of South America. He spent time at a cattle ranch in Argentina before getting caught up in civil war in Uruguay, where he was forced to enlist in a local militia." Sounds he'd be fun to have a pint with. Sounds like the fruit fell a way from the tree.

Back to TiG - I follow this guy on Twitter where he mostly clutches his pearls in horror at the state of the Labour Party but I think he's had some kind of feed in to their launch. He's just posted this, which is reassuringly boring: https://www.changepolitics.org.uk/comment-posts/where-should-the-independent-group-look-for-policy
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
The Labour party collectively needs to get the fuck over Blair. He did some good things and he did some bad things but he's been out of office and out of politics for a long time now.
But he's still sticking his stupid oar in every chance he gets. The media collectively needs to get the fuck over Blair.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
But he's still sticking his stupid oar in every chance he gets. The media collectively needs to get the fuck over Blair.
True enough. In fact you don't go far enough, because there is a third entity that need to get the fuck over Tony Blair, and that's Tony Blair.

But if he was ever going to change he'd have done so by now, I think. Terminal case of a hype man who believes his own hype.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
On one hand I thought this was funny, on the other .... not so much. Seems such a climate of hatred towards MPs at the moment. I wonder how long 'til we have another Jo Cox.

It does speak to the contractions at the heart of Corbynism to me - purporting to want to lead the state when so much of his life has been devoted to attacking its institutions. You have to believe in and acquiesce to the idea of the state and itss institutions - even the unpleasant ones - to lead effectively I think.
 
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