The Independent Group
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Leo
Well-known member
version, I step away from dissensus for a day on the beach (still) in the Dominican Republic and you've started, like, 25 new threads and bumped another dozen. you've certainly got the wind up yr butt (meant in a good way), gonna take me the weekend to catch up!
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
i'd have liked to have had a livestream of that meeting where Corbyn stormed out because Chuka Umunna isn't a "proper party leader". That's the only kind of thing that's going to restore national unity now. In a world where I might put a poster of John Bercow on my wall, something needs to happen fast.
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subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
Before Chuka can be consulted as a party leader, he needs to have a party to lead. And setting up TIG formally as a party would require them to reveal their donors which they don't want to do. But until then, fuck off Chuka, you arsewipe.
I'd probably buy a Bercow poster though
IdleRich
IdleRich
Apparently these "Order Oaarder" ringtones are popular now.Before Chuka can be consulted as a party leader, he needs to have a party to lead. And setting up TIG formally as a party would require them to reveal their donors which they don't want to do. But until then, fuck off Chuka, you arsewipe.
I'd probably buy a Bercow poster though
All true about Chuka - but when we're about to fall off the Brexit cliff I kinda feel Corbyn coulda let it slide a little and concentrated on trying to save the country.
Corbyn comes over to me as a petualnt c***. What about all the talk to your enemies rhetoric? Since their founding TiG - or rather the threat or more MPs walking - have managed to bounce Labour closer to a second ref. (followed by the inevitable reversal) and contribute to gettting Chris Williamson suspeneed, both of which I salute them for. I don't have any faith in them beyond this but an interesting couple of contributions for their opening gambit. I hope they strenghten Tom Watson and other Lab MPs against the Leadership.
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
Labour has been doing exactly what was decided collectively at conference, which includes the possibility of supporting a second referendum. But that has no chance of passing in a Commons vote until every other option has been explored, as the People's Vote campaign itself made clear the other week.
All Tom Watson and his PLP mates want is a return to New Labour status quo bollocks. The Labour leadership is supported by the half million membership, who want actual meaningful change.
Good for them I say (Watson et al). I prefer that more managerial stye if it gets elected and gets things done, to populism, monstering your enemies online, and inevitaly dashed expectation of direct democracy.
And they're not doing exactly what was decided at conference. They're not throwing their weight behind a referendum in good faith - as I'm sure you know, the membership had to really fight to get that prospect on the agenda. They're prevaricating in the hope of electuoral advantage. That actually makes sense to me, I understand why it's being done - I just wish that an articulate and capable Remainer had been in charge of the party for the last few years. The whole national conversation might be different.
And they're not doing exactly what was decided at conference. They're not throwing their weight behind a referendum in good faith - as I'm sure you know, the membership had to really fight to get that prospect on the agenda. They're prevaricating in the hope of electuoral advantage. That actually makes sense to me, I understand why it's being done - I just wish that an articulate and capable Remainer had been in charge of the party for the last few years. The whole national conversation might be different.
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I like the little I know about him. What is weird to watch is the offstage conflcts between him and Corbyn/Milne surface as they contradict each other. He's certainly closer to my ideal template of a Labour party leader but this is only a superfical impression. What about you?
Angela Rayner would be another canidate but even she was getting monstered for not spitting on the floor when she mentioned Tony Blair a few weeks ago, and I thought she was a key Corbyn ally? The whole culture of abuse to MPs seems totally out of control at the moment, things seem so febrile. This is of coursee another thing that's led to TIG. I think hardcore activists and MPs have fundamentally different goals, intentions and understandings of politics and with Corbyn you see them pitched against each other. Why else would MPs leave what's been their poltical home for years and years - in all probablity finishing their careers - unless the cultuure has become really unpleasant? There's maybe another 100 or so who sympathise inside Labour but they're keeping their heads down for now.
Angela Rayner would be another canidate but even she was getting monstered for not spitting on the floor when she mentioned Tony Blair a few weeks ago, and I thought she was a key Corbyn ally? The whole culture of abuse to MPs seems totally out of control at the moment, things seem so febrile. This is of coursee another thing that's led to TIG. I think hardcore activists and MPs have fundamentally different goals, intentions and understandings of politics and with Corbyn you see them pitched against each other. Why else would MPs leave what's been their poltical home for years and years - in all probablity finishing their careers - unless the cultuure has become really unpleasant? There's maybe another 100 or so who sympathise inside Labour but they're keeping their heads down for now.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
The Labour party collectively needs to get the fuck over Blair. He did some good things and he did some bad things but he's been out of office and out of politics for a long time now. How fucked would it be if the power-sharing agreement in Northern Ireland broke down and we returned to the bad old days of the Troubles because the Tory hard right and the Labour hard left are in control of their respective parties and both sides want to piss on everything Blair ever did? It could end up like Trump's unilateral withdrawal from the Iran denuclearization agreement for no better reason than that it was negotiated mainly by Obama.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well we've really hit the jackpot with a PM who is both as charismatic as a wet sock and utter useless, then. (To say nothing of malignant, reactionary and given to confusing asinine stubbornness with 'strength'.)
At least with Trump there's a sick sort of entertainment value.
At least with Trump there's a sick sort of entertainment value.
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I don't know. I think you can fairly argue that Blair's foreign policy blunders were really heinous, and I understand the hatred when you give that its full weight, as I think we should. On the other, it was a long time ago as you say, that seems to spill out into denoucing everything else that Labour acheived in a really b&w Manchiean way that I can't get on board with, especially when i) the solutions are simplistic - i.e. no foreign policy interventions ever - and would have provably bad effects ii) lots of elements of the domestic legacy were real positives. It's not something I find particularly easy to think about, but that contradctory complexity seems closer to reality. The good guys /bad guys positioning is a lot easier to think with, for sure.
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