The Brexit Party.

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Who loves ya, baby?
Building the Brexit party: how Nigel Farage copied Italy's digital populists - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ge-italy-digital-populists-five-star-movement

By the mid-2000s, it had come to seem obvious to the man behind Five Star’s philosophy that representative democracy was past its sell-by date. Casaleggio believed this outmoded form of government was destined to be replaced by a global web-based democracy that removed the pesky middle-men of politics – politicians themselves. “He had this very strong conviction, this belief, that the internet was all about disintermediation,” said Filippo Pittarello, a former employee of Casaleggio who now works in Five Star’s Brussels office. No longer would shops stand between consumers and producers, publishers between readers and authors, bankers between investors and entrepreneurs. “Every single aspect of the organisation of society that was not direct would be disrupted by the internet,” Pittarello continued. “So why not politics?”
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
asaleggio believed this outmoded form of government was destined to be replaced by a global web-based democracy that removed the pesky middle-men of politics – politicians themselves.
Hmmm, I wouldn't really say that the Brexit party had removed politicians though. If you just read the papers or listened to the news you would probably think it was actually called Nigel Farage's Brexit Party... maybe they mixed things up and removed the policies instead by mistake.
 
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Who loves ya, baby?
That isn't a description of BXP, it's a description of the ideas of one of the architects of Five Star; Farage just latched onto their model and borrowed the parts he liked. I agree though, I don't quite understand how they intend to eliminate politicians entirely, even if they managed to implement their internet-based direct democracy, surely you'd still have to have politicians to implement what the people voted for, unless the idea is to turn everything into a business so you'd just have shareholders and CEOs in that role instead.

This bit is unnerving:

Although Casaleggio designed Five Star to look like a member-led movement, he set the party’s course from the beginning. Casaleggio Associates not only managed Grillo’s blog; today it also runs Five Star’s digital operations and controls the valuable data being generated on Five Star’s online platform by the party’s snowballing membership. According to two recent investigations by the Italian data protection authority, the Five Star digital platform was breaching European data protection laws by tracking Five Star members in individually identifiable ways.

Casaleggio was far ahead of other political parties in using this data to help shape Five Star’s messaging, which he fed back to supporters through Grillo’s blog, and increasingly through social media. The very tools that were supposedly giving members control over the movement were allowing Casaleggio to exert control over them. With a thoughtfully crafted blogpost, he could intervene in the movement’s internal debates, bolstering certain positions and dampening others down.

“This is a long-time project of social engineering, using the web,” said Jacopo Iacoboni, who has written two books on Five Star’s rise. The first detailed how Casaleggio had begun to experiment with manipulating online consensus back in the 1990s, as the CEO of an Italian tech company that sold business tools for managing employees. He believes the way Five Star has used data is far more radical, in some ways, than what had happened in the Trump or Brexit campaigns. “In the UK and with Trump, the campaigns were, at least formally, separated from the web company running their data – think Cambridge Analytica, Aggregate IQ,” Iacoboni said. But the Five Star case is unique, he said: “A web company which creates a party, with the owner directly possessing all the data.”
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I've actually read some of this stuff before about the rise of Five Star. I agree this bit - which I've not seen before - is rather worrying (and also, one has to admit, very clever) The very tools that were supposedly giving members control over the movement were allowing Casaleggio to exert control over them.
Of course, in general it makes sense for one party to see another party that is doing well and copy their tactics - especially if that party is ideologically similar to them. I guess that there is not necessarily any reason why a left-wing party in (say) France couldn't borrow the tactics of a right-wing party in (say) Austria or vice versa as long as the tactics did not themselves contain anything that was antithetical to the party's (professed) views but it's less common that you hear that kind of floor-crossing strategising discussed - maybe those who do it simply don't mention it cos they don't want people to know about it.
The main surprise is that Farage is aware enough of what is going on in other countries to steal their ideas. Presumably it's not him who thought of it though, far more likely one of his shadowy backers or some brainiac stats guy being paid for by Banks.
 

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Who loves ya, baby?
The main surprise is that Farage is aware enough of what is going on in other countries to steal their ideas. Presumably it's not him who thought of it though, far more likely one of his shadowy backers or some brainiac stats guy being paid for by Banks.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear Steve Bannon's name come up at some point.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
It's a real shame so many people wanna go for the racist vote but the vote share picture is heartening. And I'm delighted people are waking up how useless Corbyn is, might be beginning of the end for him, though hell prob cling on like a barnacle. Enjoying a bit if schadenfreude this morning.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yeah results seem fairly in line with what was expected. Surprisingly small turnout and the Brexit party failed to win more of it than the remain parties. I dunno why they are banging on about how it shows people want Brexit, if I were them I'd shut up cos more than five seconds analysis looking past the headline seems to point in the opposite direction. Insane that the BP think they should be involved in the Brexit negotiations cos they got a third of a low turnout (especially because every single person they have is a total bellend).
Also, great slap down for Tories and Labour. Labour NEED to have the bollocks to say they are the stop-Brexit party and they could gain it all back of course...
 

Leo

Active member
as someone pointed out on facebook:

Before the election, UKIP + Conservatives had 43 MEPs.
After the election, the Brexit party + Conservatives have 33 MEPs.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
I dunno why they are banging on about how it shows people want Brexit, if I were them I'd shut up cos more than five seconds analysis looking past the headline seems to point in the opposite direction.
It depends on what kind of 'analysis' you do. Mostly what I've seen on Twitter is barbs about how Everton really won the Premier League and the UK actually won the Eurovision Song Contest.

Many of the Brexit Party followers have a pretty creative grip on reality. It's the Karl Rove notion of reality-creation, but instead of being performed by The Elites in a Straussian stylee it's now performed by The People (for The Elites, or some of them).

winbogly.jpg
 

luka

Moderator
It depends on what kind of 'analysis' you do. Mostly what I've seen on Twitter is barbs about how Everton really won the Premier League and the UK actually won the Eurovision Song Contest.

Many of the Brexit Party followers have a pretty creative grip on reality. It's the Karl Rove notion of reality-creation, but instead of being performed by The Elites in a Straussian stylee it's now performed by The People (for The Elites, or some of them).

View attachment 1037
https://groupnameforgrapejuice.blogspot.com/2017/01/ideal-objects-delerium-and-other-pizza_26.html
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
It's the Karl Rove notion of reality-creation, but instead of being performed by The Elites in a Straussian stylee it's now performed by The People (for The Elites, or some of them).
I think it's still being performed by "the elites", just a different section of them. Trump, Boris, Farage, Mogg, Fox News and the rest are nothing if not the elite, they just don't get along with their more socially liberal peers.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
Well Farage and the like are largely tools of higher paleoconservative elites (and perhaps Russia lol). The power distribution is largely a bit more diffuse; it's a little bit less about control and micromanagement - it's a little less about means, and a little more about ends. So a wider field of participation is tolerated.

I think the Sartre quote about the fun the far right can have deploying their schtick with disingenuousness comes into play here. The college-educated masses can join in now, and it's a fun hobby - in some cases, it's more than a hobby. And you have Scott Adams essentially teaching people how to do it via books and Periscope. Sales Managers of the World; Unite and Take Over!
 
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comelately

Wild Horses
Best price with the bookies on most seats for the Brexit Party at the next election is 7/1 - with equates to about an 11% chance (factoring in a profit margin). If we go into a GE without Brexit having happened, expect those odds to significantly come in.

2 of the bookies offer 2/1 on Farage being PM by 2025. They also offer 9/1 on him being PM this year.

Although there's analysis suggests that the Brexit Party will take more seats from the Conservatives than Labour, I don't think Corbyn is buying into it.

Before the election, UKIP + Conservatives had 43 MEPs.
After the election, the Brexit party + Conservatives have 33 MEPs.
Yeah, it's not unreasonable to point out that the Brexit Party's % of the vote wasn't massively higher than UKIP's at the last election. But we don't really know how UKIP would have fared if Cameron hadn't *promised* the referendum.....and it still feels different this time. The Labour vote is pretty wobbly, and its coalition of voters increasingly difficult to please simultaneously.
 

luka

Moderator
Remember when comelately told us how he had recently learned how to make a girl squirt? That was cool
 

comelately

Wild Horses
It's funny I had a weird premonition of something like that being brought up.

I'm wary of taking the bait and going over old ground in the context of 2019. I'm pretty sure I said some things which are tonally off, but my recollection is one or two people were being ahistorical, unrealistic and dare-I-say a little prissy regarding the reality of most romantic couplings. I, probably naively, tried to offer an alternative point of view, and I suspect I would stand by the general thrust of what I said. But we're not that bored right? Right?

Tbh I realise that I am intellectually lazy and greatly admire the chops of some of the peeps on this board. I think I occasionally have something to add, but essentially I'm happy to be a member of the audience
 
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