other_life

bioconfused
"Eleh toledot haShamayim w'haAretz b'hi'varam b'yom 'asot Y'hwah Elohim eretz w'shamayim."
These births [of] the Skies and the Earth in their creation/through Avraham, in [the] day they were formed [by] haShem the Strongest, land and skies.
(b'reishis/genesis 2:4)

it was all for Avraham.
this is also the first place we see that name, YHWH, haShem
 

other_life

bioconfused
note also that Adam was taken and placed in Gan Eden from somewhere which is not specified. i touched on this some i think in the 'spitballs'/anthropology of magic thread touching on the emergence of horticulture
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
From very early on, it's clear that Adam/Eve and their descendants aren't the only human beings around, that once they're out of Eden they're in an already-populated world. The notion that all human beings are supposed to be descended from this original couple has very little support in the bible as written. It's what you might think must be true, on the basis of their being the first-created human beings, but the story doesn't actually adhere to that logic at all.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
That's right. So for instance you have descendants of A&E 'taking wives' who haven't been accounted for in the genealogies
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
Is that true?

I thought everybody was descended either directly from Adam or from Caine/Seth.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
'And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.'


So along with Seth Adam was pumping out kids for 800 years!
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
Cain complains on being cursed: "my punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that everyone that findeth me shall slay me", which would be an odd thing to complain of if one were one of precisely four existing human beings at that point. God relents slightly and sets the mark of Cain upon him to let everyone know that he's not to be killed. But this whole exchange only really makes sense if there's assumed to be already a wider social order in which a fugitive and a vagabond is something that one can be.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
Oh yeah good point.

Looking into it on Wikipedia - I keep looking at these articles to check something and it's always absolutely facsinating, all the debates and the sources in other myths, etc.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
See, Corpse, it's a good read, isn't it? Half the revelation is reading around the actual books themselves, their origins, context, etc.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
This is a terrific thread, other_life and poetix came back at just the right time. It was divine providence!
 

firefinga

Well-known member
The reactionary that I am I freely admit that I lover the Bible, or to be precise, parts of it (there are dead boring sections in it, too), but generally, a great book, covers so many timeless aspects of human life. For existance, the Tower of Babel is an awesome allegory for human hubris.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Smooth Landing by JH Prynne.

There is a lie of the immortal
which we wait for up here,
up on the slab as on the nod,
the vapours puff and disappear.

And in the long run to give blame
adds new spirit to the water-colour,
in the famous heart-felt posies,
which decorate the killer.

Have you had enough? Just say
justly that the hostage accuses
himself, as he boils his egg,
counting to where he loses

hope of a softened future life,
taking the rough with humour
as a cataract, no less,
whitens to peace without honour.
 

other_life

bioconfused
That's right. So for instance you have descendants of A&E 'taking wives' who haven't been accounted for in the genealogies
it's supposed to be the genealogical pedigree of the jewish people, yeah? so not everyone can or would be accounted for. the jews and those they beefed with.
i also get the sense that these names w outlandish lifespans are actually documenting the 'lifespans' of tribes by those names, kamal salibi says the same. even the "120 years" thing, it's a remarkable feat for a person in contemporary times to live that long. although ofc there are some (seemingly) fantastical/mythic bits ab lifespan and and life-cycle later in genesis and through the torah.
maybe there is something to the 'conspiratorial'/'fringe' idea (luka you'll like this) that people used to live that long until a massive environmental catastrophe drastically shortened everyone's lifespans thereafter (the 'ancient nukes' idea. there's an entire poorly designed website too)
or perhaps the jews are saying 'our ancestors were uncommonly long-lived, strong, and resilient'. which tracks
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Oh you know what I was going to say you lot. When you find a really good passage type it up and post it here cos there is so much breathtaking stuff in here
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
Excited to know this stuff is there though

My favourite bit so far is Noah cursing Ham for no reason, like a bad dream, like Kafka's "The Judgement"
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Wait until you see how Esau gets treated, or Aaron in Numbers. There is a lot of things that look unjust or simply baffling to us that are there to be accepted, how much is to do with the reaction of different sensibilities and context, and how much is part of the theological purpose of the texts is hard to tell.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
I was going to make a rule where you have to type it out and not copy and paste but I can't be bothered

7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.

8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.

13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
 
Top