pattycakes_

Well-known member
Not defending him, he's guilty as fuck, you might well be right about that photo - but it's interesting that a pap can capture one moment of glee and that becomes the face of an unrepentant bastard. Makes me think of "Gone Girl".
How do you mean? It didn't stay that way for long. I think he was just very happy at that moment because he thought it was all going to go away.

You can tell he's a dunce, can't you. Too stupid to be moral, maybe.
Is that how it works? Intelligence equals morality? Not so sure.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
There is definitely a particular way of being absolutely thick that includes utter self-centredness, the heedless pursuit of immediate gratification without any ability to reckon consequences either for yourself or for otters.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
It's that form of stupidity for which the highest imaginable cleverness is that of getting away with something you dimly reckon might be problematic for you if you were caught doing it.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Although equally I've known some barely sentient people who were instinctively kind and Hannibal Lecter is a famous historical example of a very clever bastard.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
Sure, it's a sort of moral occlusion. You can be e.g. very good at maths and a total moral idiot.

Lecter is interestingly quite moral in his own way. There's a line in the Hannibal film about how as a boy he doesn't respect the natural pecking order - some bigger boys try to bully him and he retaliates by maiming them. Although in his case it's psychopathic fearlessness, I think there's a lot to be said morally for disrespecting the natural pecking order.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
How do you mean? It didn't stay that way for long. I think he was just very happy at that moment because he thought it was all going to go away.
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Well exactly - who knows what he was smiling about at that moment? You assume it's because he's got away with it. Maybe he was chatting with the queen about a cat meme he saw last night on Reddit.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
Edmund Kemper was frighteningly clever. And frighteningly large. And frighteningly predisposed towards cutting off women's heads and burying them in the garden.

I don't mean to suggest a simple "everyone who is evil is stupid", but I think in SOME cases that's true.

I think if he was a psychopath he wouldn't be so shit at pretending to be innocent.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
The newspapers is of image is very interesting, sometimes immoral,sometimes hilarious, often both at once
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
In reference to what Corpsey is saying. In terms of selecting an image to illustrate a story regardless of any inherent connection between the two.
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
There is definitely a particular way of being absolutely thick that includes utter self-centredness, the heedless pursuit of immediate gratification without any ability to reckon consequences either for yourself or for otters.
Yes, of course but the total opposite can also be true. A moot point, to put it lightly.
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
I'd say that the lack of morals ometer leans much more in the direction of the intelligent than the unintelligent. But its pretty complicated stuff, you have evil born of ignorance and lack of education and then evil born of power and knowing more than whoever is being exploited. And that's just to start
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
charisma relies on appearing amoral if not outright immoral.

you have to pretend to be a piece of shit to get people to like you, even you're a sweet boy.
There's a preface to Junky written by an associate of Burroughs's - might even have been Ginsberg, I'm not sure - which says something along the lines of "his emotional self-discipline makes even the liberties he takes seem justifiable". In other words, some people are grown-up enough or together enough or self-aware enough or whatever it is to get away with being amoral, because somehow even the worst misdeeds don't compromise their fundamental spiritual integrity. Very particularly American mode of exculpatory self-mythologising, I think. Bukowski's well into it too.
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pattycakes_

Well-known member
Well exactly - who knows what he was smiling about at that moment? You assume it's because he's got away with it. Maybe he was chatting with the queen about a cat meme he saw last night on Reddit.
Knowing the full depth of what he was in, and then finding out the key witness had just been erased the night before? And you're thinking he was having a casual conversation that morning? Cmon man.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
To me it seems strange that the queen is also smiling there - he's a moron but you'd think she'd know better, knowing there'll be cameras. Which to me suggests they MIGHT have caught him at the absolute right moment (from the paparazzi POV).

To reiterate, I'm not saying its impossible or even implausible that he was delighted by Epstein's death, and was celebrating it there. I just find it interesting that a single snapshot can tell the whole story as far as observers are concerned.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
I'd say that the lack of morals ometer leans much more in the direction of the intelligent than the unintelligent. But its pretty complicated stuff, you have evil born of ignorance and lack of education and then evil born of power and knowing more than whoever is being exploited. And that's just to start
I think moral lapses are universal. Let's not forget that to millions (billions?) of other people worldwide WE'RE part of the richest class enjoying our luxuries while they starve. And I don't think about that for more than a few seconds, most days.

Morality is about empathy, isn't it, and there are so many ways we can have empathy blunted or cut off. Comparatively the percentage of people who can turn it off face to face and violently attack someone is pretty low. Intelligence might have something to do with this capacity, but I doubt there's a direct link. Success (financial, political, etc.) may very well be linked to capacity to shut off empathy.

Pinker argues that peoples circle of empathy has expanded with education - most of us naturally feel it for our family and friends and need to make an effort to feel it for people on the other side of the world (though there are techniques to bridge that gap, e.g. Oxfam adverts on TV.)
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
Eyes Wide Shut is about this, too, in part - the doctors inability to imagine his wife's sexuality, for example. Also the ritual orgy where the masks are protecting identities but also removing empathy and eroticism from the sex act.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Eyes Wide Shut is about this, too, in part - the doctors inability to imagine his wife's sexuality, for example. Also the ritual orgy where the masks are protecting identities but also removing empathy and eroticism from the sex act.
Those times when you remember corpsey has a masters in English and is a high level operator
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
To me it seems strange that the queen is also smiling there - he's a moron but you'd think she'd know better, knowing there'll be cameras. Which to me suggests they MIGHT have caught him at the absolute right moment (from the paparazzi POV).

To reiterate, I'm not saying its impossible or even implausible that he was delighted by Epstein's death, and was celebrating it there. I just find it interesting that a single snapshot can tell the whole story as far as observers are concerned.
She's forcing a smile for the cameras because 'La la la we're innocent. Nothing to worry about here'. She's a pro. He's a dunce. But at that moment he thought he was getting away with it. Put yourself in his shoes for a second. He's a member of the most famous royal family in the world. A family which works hard, and will stop at nothing to maintain their power and positive image. He saw what they did to Diana. He suspects he would suffer similar or worse. God knows what horrible shit they would do to teach him a lesson and make an example. Epstein died in the early hours. He wakes up to the news....

..big grin for the rest of the day. They know how to play their cards. Make a public appearance and have the paps capture them looking fine and dandy on their way to church.

There's an American journalist who has come out in the last few weeks saying they've been sitting on a huge epstein expose for years because of threats from the Royal family.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50296742

This rabbit hole goes pretty deep, bruh
 
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