DJ Spooky at the Tate as part of Futurist Fridays
- Thread starter Freakaholic
- Start date
Ah- the many meanings of minimal!
I guess Dataplex is "minimal" because it is constructed from tiny elements (a bit like minimal classical) and each element is just a small "cut" of the datastreams he presents during the opening 10 minutes or so, arranged into frenetic rhythms (again somewhat like minimalist classical)--- also the sounds selected are tiny/micro/incredibly textureless.
Its not "minimal" because it functions as one massive 50 minute piece, and also cos he cheats a bit later on by adding in those pings and slidey string noises... both of which are crucial to making the whole thing work so well, in my opinion... its strange that so much electronica appears to limit itself to 4-5 min long pieces (ie- song length) when they could explore longer structures...
I guess Dataplex is "minimal" because it is constructed from tiny elements (a bit like minimal classical) and each element is just a small "cut" of the datastreams he presents during the opening 10 minutes or so, arranged into frenetic rhythms (again somewhat like minimalist classical)--- also the sounds selected are tiny/micro/incredibly textureless.
Its not "minimal" because it functions as one massive 50 minute piece, and also cos he cheats a bit later on by adding in those pings and slidey string noises... both of which are crucial to making the whole thing work so well, in my opinion... its strange that so much electronica appears to limit itself to 4-5 min long pieces (ie- song length) when they could explore longer structures...
surely duration doesn't have much to do with the definition of minimalism? I mean the first wave composers all did extended pieces. (especially all the all night concerts or the Eternal Music Theater which is a drone that supposedly never ends)
also, I don't buy the "tiny pieces of information" definition either - pointilism is not the same as minimalism. Ligeti's concept of whatever-it-is-that-he-calls-it (poly-harmonic? micro-polyphony?), is basically the accumulation of thousands of tiny melodic pieces which comprise an ocean of macroscopic melody - and his work is not very minimal OR "minimal".
nor is the pure sound source thing which you seem to have brushed upon an essential characteristic of minimalism. if that's the case then all music made with a single instrument - piano solos for instance - are minimalist.
to me, the definition seems to revolve around a deliberate reduction of stimulus (palette), often through or in conjunction with sameness and/or repetition.
also, I don't buy the "tiny pieces of information" definition either - pointilism is not the same as minimalism. Ligeti's concept of whatever-it-is-that-he-calls-it (poly-harmonic? micro-polyphony?), is basically the accumulation of thousands of tiny melodic pieces which comprise an ocean of macroscopic melody - and his work is not very minimal OR "minimal".
nor is the pure sound source thing which you seem to have brushed upon an essential characteristic of minimalism. if that's the case then all music made with a single instrument - piano solos for instance - are minimalist.
to me, the definition seems to revolve around a deliberate reduction of stimulus (palette), often through or in conjunction with sameness and/or repetition.
Yes- many meanings...
I always thought minimalism in a classical sense meant using very small pieces of musical information as the building blocks for pieces (which might be quite grandiose, but the complexity comes in the way small cells of information are rhythmically varied) as in Reich, Reilly and Glass
OR
The holy-drone minimalists like La Monte Young and also Charlemagne Palestine et al (and Phill Niblock?)whereby even the rhythmical element is jettisoned and tone is the main element of interest.
It is a bit of a bullshit term really tho, as all "minimalist" composers seem to object themselves whenever they are labelled with it!
Of course you could say a piece with very few layers of music is "minimal" (indeed see minimal techno or post punk as "minimalist" rock, everything stripped down and given space).... all more bullshit, cos "minimal" can apply to a number of very different aspects of music, therefore obviously resulting in very different end-points. See Philip Sherburne's recent Pitchfork column on minimal's misuses as a term in techno...
I always thought minimalism in a classical sense meant using very small pieces of musical information as the building blocks for pieces (which might be quite grandiose, but the complexity comes in the way small cells of information are rhythmically varied) as in Reich, Reilly and Glass
OR
The holy-drone minimalists like La Monte Young and also Charlemagne Palestine et al (and Phill Niblock?)whereby even the rhythmical element is jettisoned and tone is the main element of interest.
It is a bit of a bullshit term really tho, as all "minimalist" composers seem to object themselves whenever they are labelled with it!
Of course you could say a piece with very few layers of music is "minimal" (indeed see minimal techno or post punk as "minimalist" rock, everything stripped down and given space).... all more bullshit, cos "minimal" can apply to a number of very different aspects of music, therefore obviously resulting in very different end-points. See Philip Sherburne's recent Pitchfork column on minimal's misuses as a term in techno...
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Very interesting (off topic, but probably more interesting than DJ Spooky anyway) question. I'd have said that minimalism should involve a rejection of the tension / release principle in favour of serially being in the moment - it's about being rather than becoming.confucius said:
This would make Adams, Glass, Nyman et al Not Proper Minimalism, which seems fair enough. On the other hand, this defines 'minimalism' rather than 'minimal', which seems to just mean "more than normally repetitive and free from big gestures."
Hmm... the bit about "free from big gestures" seems accurate... the way minimal music focusses you in (by various aesthetic means) on the small changes which are lost in more "maximal" or "overstated" music. This goes equally for tone drone stuff (where you are given the space to appreciate shifting overtones) and rhythm-based music like Reich or techno or funk, where the slightest shift in composition of a rhythmical loop becomes an intensifier... A focussing in on otherwise difficult to observe elements of change...
In which case Dataplex is far from minimal as some of the shifts are pretty big gestures.
In which case Dataplex is far from minimal as some of the shifts are pretty big gestures.
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Gabba Flamenco Crossover
High Sierra Skullfuck
I guess there's a distiction to be made between music that is structurally minimal but can be texturally very rich, like a lot of electronica and modern classical, and music that is minimal by way of it's relative textural simplicity (a lot of folk falls into this catagory, but is structurally & narratively much more complex than modern music).
Then there is the 3rd definition, a 'spiritual' minimalism (cf. la monte young). Reaching out for the primal om that underpins the universe sort of thing.
Maybe the confusion comes about because minimalism is a term that describes the process of creating art, not the effect of the finished piece. But because art is really about isolating elements of normal existance so that they resonate in new ways, making it is always a process of stripping away unwanted elements - in that sense all good art is 'minimalist'.
Ian McDonald wrote a piece on Glass/Reich in which he waspishly labelled minimalist music as 'organised underachievement', which is a phrase I like a lot.
Then there is the 3rd definition, a 'spiritual' minimalism (cf. la monte young). Reaching out for the primal om that underpins the universe sort of thing.
Maybe the confusion comes about because minimalism is a term that describes the process of creating art, not the effect of the finished piece. But because art is really about isolating elements of normal existance so that they resonate in new ways, making it is always a process of stripping away unwanted elements - in that sense all good art is 'minimalist'.
Ian McDonald wrote a piece on Glass/Reich in which he waspishly labelled minimalist music as 'organised underachievement', which is a phrase I like a lot.
re: spooky.
He came to speak at my music class at my school a couple of years ago, and I was super into some of what he was saying.... until he started playing music. He handed out a bunch of free promo CDs, and they were totally boring!
Oh, and he kept going on about how everything in culture was just remixing other things...which isn't a terrible idea or anything, but isn't, well, all there is to say! He kept asking us (in a class of tape music type stuff) whether our final project was a remix. Which again, is cool and just fine, but his constant emphasis was getting annoying..
I did like the picture he showed of a collabo he did w/ Yoko Ono (tiny) and Thurston Moore (super tall), although I guess this kinda collabo doesn't go down so well on dissensus anyway
He came to speak at my music class at my school a couple of years ago, and I was super into some of what he was saying.... until he started playing music. He handed out a bunch of free promo CDs, and they were totally boring!
Oh, and he kept going on about how everything in culture was just remixing other things...which isn't a terrible idea or anything, but isn't, well, all there is to say! He kept asking us (in a class of tape music type stuff) whether our final project was a remix. Which again, is cool and just fine, but his constant emphasis was getting annoying..
I did like the picture he showed of a collabo he did w/ Yoko Ono (tiny) and Thurston Moore (super tall), although I guess this kinda collabo doesn't go down so well on dissensus anyway
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bruno
est malade
dj spooky... terrible, terrible. a lot of mosts. most tedious performance i have ever sat through. songs of a dead dreamer, most ridiculous liner notes i have ever read. and necropolis, most pointless cd i have ever bought (sealed, in my defense. but the damage to the environment is irreversible). in general i think everything has it's place in the world, but i'm willing to make an exception.
Dubquixote
Submariner
did anybody happen to catch this performance and if so is your spooky revulsion still firmly in place?
DJ Spooky = The Emperor's Old Clothes
I remember he wrote at Paper magazine (horrible) when I interned there (horrible) about ten years ago and by the way he dressed and acted I mistook him for a stylist.
Don't like his music and his is a great example of how self promoting hype can actually destroy your music by making it unlistenable relative to the cacophony of hyperbole thundering around it.
I remember he wrote at Paper magazine (horrible) when I interned there (horrible) about ten years ago and by the way he dressed and acted I mistook him for a stylist.
Don't like his music and his is a great example of how self promoting hype can actually destroy your music by making it unlistenable relative to the cacophony of hyperbole thundering around it.
wonk_vitesse
radio eros
Great Film / Shame about the music
yes i caught it , managed to sneak in with a pass from a mate luckily. It was sold out. I think the Tate have a kind of cool that is beyond most venues in London. What a great film, like a load of CCTV from 1927! You couldn't quite believe how modern Berlin looked. A thriving, intense metropolis.
Soundtrack started heroically enough with searing steam trains and big ambient harmonic washes but just all turned slosh in the end. It felt like something from '95.
yes i caught it , managed to sneak in with a pass from a mate luckily. It was sold out.
I think the Tate have a kind of cool that is beyond most venues in London. What a great film, like a load of CCTV from 1927! You couldn't quite believe how modern Berlin looked. A thriving, intense metropolis.Soundtrack started heroically enough with searing steam trains and big ambient harmonic washes but just all turned slosh in the end. It felt like something from '95.
Gabba Flamenco Crossover
High Sierra Skullfuck
I'm going to the monolake & friends show tonight.
So it sold out, wonk? That suprises me, coz that hall is vast. Or are they not using the whole thing?
So it sold out, wonk? That suprises me, coz that hall is vast. Or are they not using the whole thing?
Ness Rowlah
Norwegian Wood
Ness Rowlah said:
Not that extreme as it turns out. But still fekken funky, great and good visuals (in that order - Henke, Noto, Ikeda I think). I guess some would have found it a bit tedious, pretentious and all - but I just lapped it up.
The turbine hall is great place for this sort of music - and with me leathers under my head and poncy red pillow under my arse it was great getting some heavy bass rocking the floor. The visuals were a bit crap during Henke's (Monolake) show (basically his music sw), but it didn't really matter - I just put myself in the horizontal or stared at the roof while the Richter's where going through my body.
They really should get some heavy acts in this hall - ie dub or a dream ambient crew of Eno, Aphex Twin and Biosphere. It's that sort of venue.
Gabba Flamenco Crossover
High Sierra Skullfuck
Yeah i enjoyed it - just the experience of being in that hall with all the lights off & that music, and everyone sat on the floor looking at the screen was like a wierd sci fi religious ceremony.
Monolake was cool, much more like his previous stuff than i'd anticipated - but there's no musician more suited to playing in that space than him. You could tell he really got a buzz off it too, when he stood up at the end. The visuals were no great shakes for anyone who's every used a software sequencer (though I quite liked the exploding blocks). Many irreverent variations on 'you sunk my battleship' etc from my crew
Alva noto had us sharply divided with several hedz decamping to the bar, but i really enjoyed him. Especially the last one where the screen seemed to be frosting over, to the sound of sweeping monumental chords receding through waves of digital distortion. I wouldnt listen to it in my lounge but within that setting (which is, after all, the point of installation art) it was really powerful.
Datamatics was the weakest of the three IMO - glitchy ambient electro, nice enough but a little tired and obvious after what had gone before. He didnt use his idea (the coalescense and movement of data, and the forms it creates) to anything like it's full potential. A bit disappointing.
Monolake was cool, much more like his previous stuff than i'd anticipated - but there's no musician more suited to playing in that space than him. You could tell he really got a buzz off it too, when he stood up at the end. The visuals were no great shakes for anyone who's every used a software sequencer (though I quite liked the exploding blocks). Many irreverent variations on 'you sunk my battleship' etc from my crew
Alva noto had us sharply divided with several hedz decamping to the bar, but i really enjoyed him. Especially the last one where the screen seemed to be frosting over, to the sound of sweeping monumental chords receding through waves of digital distortion. I wouldnt listen to it in my lounge but within that setting (which is, after all, the point of installation art) it was really powerful.
Datamatics was the weakest of the three IMO - glitchy ambient electro, nice enough but a little tired and obvious after what had gone before. He didnt use his idea (the coalescense and movement of data, and the forms it creates) to anything like it's full potential. A bit disappointing.
I thought this was pretty great actually- was worried the sound system would be too puny, but it was easily loud enough. Also the seating arrangement and hype-visual nature of the event was a good solution to the whole "boring laptop gig" syndrome... (IE: Standing at a gig where the guy on stage moves a mouse about is so frustrating, plus here the visuals gave a much needed gestural element to the proceedings...)
Monolake were good, but it was really all about Alva noto and Ryoji Ikeda. I was surprised by Alva Noto's set, as the only stuff of his I had heard previously were the collaborations with Sakamoto, where his contributions appeared to be very minimal glitch and click type stuff. But here the actual music was extremely emotive, bits of massive noise storms, bits of almost Bowie-Eno gloom-Euroambient, all run thru distortions which sounded like he was playing with pure electricity... and the interaction between audio and visual was extremely hypnotic, at times appearing like tuning forks (for the pure sounds) then like rain on water, then when the distortion really kicked in at the end like wind blowing sand across a desert. It was wonderful to hear such a titanic, holy sound in that immense space.
Ikeda I think was interesting (slightly less immediately impressive than Alva Noto) but with perhaps the most sophisticated music-visual interaction (and the hardest to discern how things were interrelated). If anything he could have done with more sections like the middle bit where it sounded for a minute or so like he was making a database dance to the sounds of some minimal redux of R'n'B... Also the ending where he was effectively rushing thru millions of co-ordinates on screen which corresponded to an ever-compressing stream of percussive hits was almost like a big budget action movie detonation...
Monolake were good, but it was really all about Alva noto and Ryoji Ikeda. I was surprised by Alva Noto's set, as the only stuff of his I had heard previously were the collaborations with Sakamoto, where his contributions appeared to be very minimal glitch and click type stuff. But here the actual music was extremely emotive, bits of massive noise storms, bits of almost Bowie-Eno gloom-Euroambient, all run thru distortions which sounded like he was playing with pure electricity... and the interaction between audio and visual was extremely hypnotic, at times appearing like tuning forks (for the pure sounds) then like rain on water, then when the distortion really kicked in at the end like wind blowing sand across a desert. It was wonderful to hear such a titanic, holy sound in that immense space.
Ikeda I think was interesting (slightly less immediately impressive than Alva Noto) but with perhaps the most sophisticated music-visual interaction (and the hardest to discern how things were interrelated). If anything he could have done with more sections like the middle bit where it sounded for a minute or so like he was making a database dance to the sounds of some minimal redux of R'n'B... Also the ending where he was effectively rushing thru millions of co-ordinates on screen which corresponded to an ever-compressing stream of percussive hits was almost like a big budget action movie detonation...
Loved this event. As gek says, it brilliantly avoided the whole boring bloke with laptop problem, by integrating the whole experience with visuals, and using a fantastic space.
I enjoyed how the 3 different performances showed different strategies for presenting audio-visual experiences. In the first piece, the relation between aural and visual was such that the visual informed the music. The second turned this relation on its head, with the music as the stimulus, to which the visuals then responded. And finally Ikeda has the visuals and music on an equal level, each representing the same ideas, neither one leading the other, compete integration.
Whilst the monolake stuff was fun, i'd expect it most appealed for those familiar with sequencers. It probably would've been a bit boring otherwise. The music was nice enough (enjoyed the sub rumblings), but nothing particularly stunning, and it didn't move around too much. And, as i say, you could probably only really enjoy the visuals from a technical point of view.
I found myself enjoying the Alva Noto piece immensely. I suspect those that left to go to the bar didn't really put in the necessary effort. Because you could have easily thought that it wasn't much more than some dude playing some fairly obvious noisy ambient with the visuals provided by Windows Media Player's Visualiser thing, if you didn't focus clearely enough with it (I suspect if i'd have had a few beers, this would have been quite difficult). To me, it became clear from the off that to really appreciate this you had to delve into the visuals on display, focus on them intently, and to try and discover the relations between the music and visualisation. No doubt this one on for the more right-brained among us. Discovering these relations fascinated me, and importantly, enhanced the music significantly, allowing a greater clarity of perception and involvement with each aspect of the music, since each aspect controlled a different spacial function.
As the final massive drone chord grew, the hiss and noise served to further hide and distort the geometry of the underlying tones, and as it the decibels grew, the amplitude of the visual dance grew beyond the scope of the screen. As my stare was refocused outside of the screen, I suddenly became aware of the hall we were in, the light dancing in flickers on the walls of this immense cavern. This gloriously brought together the whole experience - achingly beautiful immense drone chord, obscured by noise, explained by visuals, pressed into your body by sub-bass - encouraging a huge grin on my face, and an ecstacy-style serotonin rush.
Yeah, loved that.
Ikeda was wonderful too, although less emotional, in that sense. But it did have quite sense of humour. The "database dance" gek refers to was brilliant - the data search jolted and paused on an off-beat rnb snare click, waited, and then continued its dance. The only real problem with Ikeda is that there was probably too much information going on to really understand any of it properly - because the music and visuals weren't perfectly synched in some mathematical relation, but rather part of one and the same machine, worked away independently. That's no bad thing though, just different.
I enjoyed how the 3 different performances showed different strategies for presenting audio-visual experiences. In the first piece, the relation between aural and visual was such that the visual informed the music. The second turned this relation on its head, with the music as the stimulus, to which the visuals then responded. And finally Ikeda has the visuals and music on an equal level, each representing the same ideas, neither one leading the other, compete integration.
Whilst the monolake stuff was fun, i'd expect it most appealed for those familiar with sequencers. It probably would've been a bit boring otherwise. The music was nice enough (enjoyed the sub rumblings), but nothing particularly stunning, and it didn't move around too much. And, as i say, you could probably only really enjoy the visuals from a technical point of view.
I found myself enjoying the Alva Noto piece immensely. I suspect those that left to go to the bar didn't really put in the necessary effort. Because you could have easily thought that it wasn't much more than some dude playing some fairly obvious noisy ambient with the visuals provided by Windows Media Player's Visualiser thing, if you didn't focus clearely enough with it (I suspect if i'd have had a few beers, this would have been quite difficult). To me, it became clear from the off that to really appreciate this you had to delve into the visuals on display, focus on them intently, and to try and discover the relations between the music and visualisation. No doubt this one on for the more right-brained among us. Discovering these relations fascinated me, and importantly, enhanced the music significantly, allowing a greater clarity of perception and involvement with each aspect of the music, since each aspect controlled a different spacial function.
As the final massive drone chord grew, the hiss and noise served to further hide and distort the geometry of the underlying tones, and as it the decibels grew, the amplitude of the visual dance grew beyond the scope of the screen. As my stare was refocused outside of the screen, I suddenly became aware of the hall we were in, the light dancing in flickers on the walls of this immense cavern. This gloriously brought together the whole experience - achingly beautiful immense drone chord, obscured by noise, explained by visuals, pressed into your body by sub-bass - encouraging a huge grin on my face, and an ecstacy-style serotonin rush.
Yeah, loved that.
Ikeda was wonderful too, although less emotional, in that sense. But it did have quite sense of humour. The "database dance" gek refers to was brilliant - the data search jolted and paused on an off-beat rnb snare click, waited, and then continued its dance. The only real problem with Ikeda is that there was probably too much information going on to really understand any of it properly - because the music and visuals weren't perfectly synched in some mathematical relation, but rather part of one and the same machine, worked away independently. That's no bad thing though, just different.