"Chav - the Musical"

elgato

I just dont know
Sorry i ducked out for a bit, don't have much time at the moment. Gek pretty much said what I would've wanted to anyway (although more articulately!). Some interesting ideas coming out

Yeah but you couldn't even decide to do that if you wanted to, in fact you couldn't even want to.
Is it not the case that you could indeed want to, but that that want would have been formed by processes outside of your control? Similarly, you could make the decision, but the decision is simply a result of the interaction of various formative factors, over which you have no discretion (other than the discretion afforded by the interaction of various other formative factors, over which you have no discretion, etc etc)?

Quite inarticulate, sorry
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Sorry i ducked out for a bit, don't have much time at the moment. Gek pretty much said what I would've wanted to anyway (although more articulately!). Some interesting ideas coming out



Is it not the case that you could indeed want to, but that that want would have been formed by processes outside of your control? Similarly, you could make the decision, but the decision is simply a result of the interaction of various formative factors, over which you have no discretion (other than the discretion afforded by the interaction of various other formative factors, over which you have no discretion, etc etc)?

Quite inarticulate, sorry
No I understand what you're saying. I think it makes a difference what your definition of 'you' is.

Anyone arguing for the reality of genuine volition would I think have to be going beyond regular causality to explain it anyway.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
My point is; Quantum mechanical probability is a false alternative to determinism. QM is deterministic. But the things which are determined are different to the things we classically expect. The wavefunction, and the evolution in time of the wavefunction are determined. The statistical behaviour of the system is determined, but the individual action is only predicted.
If there was a complete QM model for the brain this probability still leaves no room for an external volition to choose a particular result from those probabilistically allowed.
This is pretty much my position: the mere fact that things at a quantum level operate under principles of statistical chance rather than clockwork mechanics doesn't alter the fact that there appears to be little room for genuine volition here. The observer problem thing twists things in another direction entirely tho (as well as quantum electro dynamics and the implications for causation and time). However I am not overly happy with the gross anthroprocentricism the observer problem implies...
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
This is pretty much my position: the mere fact that things at a quantum level operate under principles of statistical chance rather than clockwork mechanics doesn't alter the fact that there appears to be little room for genuine volition here.
Despite being 'pro-choice' (rofl) in the larger argument, I'd have to agree that mere randomness does not imply free will by itself: if you are somehow compelled to act one way or another according to the throw of a die or the toss of a coin, you have no more free will than if you're compelled to simply do whatever some else tells you to.

But talking of quantum mechanics and brains brings me back to the point I raised upthread: namely, if you're prepared to believe that the several pounds of offal in your head can somehow spontaneously give rise to intelligence, isn't it possible that free will emerges in a similar way?
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Despite being 'pro-choice' (rofl) in the larger argument, I'd have to agree that mere randomness does not imply free will by itself: if you are somehow compelled to act one way or another according to the throw of a die or the toss of a coin, you have no more free will than if you're compelled to simply do whatever some else tells you to.

But talking of quantum mechanics and brains brings me back to the point I raised upthread: namely, if you're prepared to believe that the several pounds of offal in your head can somehow spontaneously give rise to intelligence, isn't it possible that free will emerges in a similar way?
I like the offal imagery Mr Tea but I don't think that self-awareness necessarily implies free will. Also the brain-meat doesn't just spontaneously give rise to intelligence in a vacuum does it? Although the question of how physical matter can give rise to self-awareness is interesting I'm not sure how much self-awareness merely creates an illusion of free will.
 
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