Um, well, speaking only for myself: I'm not offended, I'm saddened. And that's what it is, saddening. But really mine was a totally offhand comment- of course there's nothing surprising in the parallels the pope draws. I'm not quite sure how you figure it's a "massive understatement" (that seems hyperbolic, but I'm not trying to get into an endless back and forth). But for my part I've never read what you've written about Catholocism, so while I'm not going to ascribe to it blindly, I wouldn't be surprised to find I agree with some of what you say at least based on the little bit quoted above. I have the urge (have had since the start of this thread) to try to extend this out into something a bit more general, but I don't have the time, and my own views (or whatever) are not that systematic at this point, I'm sloppy, I'll admit it. It seems to me your thinking is deliberatly cold, though, and while I find that intriguing I wonder if you recognize that people will be calling you over the top as long as that coldness is your aim.k-punk said:I wonder if everyone who finds the Pope's comments 'offensive' still objects to my supposedly 'over the top' attacks on Catholicism? Because all the Pope is doing is following through the logic of the RCC's long-stated Pro-Creationist, Pro-Life philosophy. That such a logic has and must inevitably lead to misery, poverty, disease and atrocity on a mass scale was part of my reason for arguing that Catholicism is innately evil.
The Pope is precisely NOT being hyperbolic. If we accept the first principles of the RCC sacred life cult, i.e. that foetuses are equivalent to persons, then comparing abortion to the Jewish Holocaust is quite clearly a massive understatement.
Who is the comment offensive to any way? Holocaust victims or women who have had aboritions?
Well, his argument was slightly more sophisticated than that (but only slightly). I agree with you about the logic of his position, I just found the deafening silence coming from certain sections of the media amusing given their horror at Ken's faux pas.k-punk said:Seems to me that the 'offence' thing reveals the real power of politesse: it's OK to have views contary to liberal consensus so long as you don't have the poor taste to express them in public. All the Pope was doing was expressing the clear, stated position of the Catholic church. The reason it is not hyperbolic is that, once you have accepted that foetuses are people, then the amount of 'murder' that has happened in abortion clinics dwarfs the killings of the holocaust.
And I wasn't in any way *ahem* offended by your remarks, K-Punk. Frankly, I'm just a bit new to posting publicly like this, and I guess I'm a little timid like one day I'll probably take a bruising. But hey...k-punk said:Jesse, that certainly wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, certainly not you... and i obv expect ppl to disagree with what i write, that doesn't bother me at all, but i'm sometimes bemused about the inconsistencies in ppl's objections...
Seems to me that the 'offence' thing reveals the real power of politesse: it's OK to have views contary to liberal consensus so long as you don't have the poor taste to express them in public. All the Pope was doing was expressing the clear, stated position of the Catholic church. The reason it is not hyperbolic is that, once you have accepted that foetuses are people, then the amount of 'murder' that has happened in abortion clinics dwarfs the killings of the holocaust.
k-punk said:The latest twist to this is the bizarre cooked-up controversy concerning John Reid and Paxman. For those who haven't followed this, in a preamble to an interview Paxman described Reid as 'Labour's attack dog'. Reid thereupon refused to answer any questions until Paxman took back this 'insult'. Reid's reasoning? Paxman was only so describing him because of his 'Glasgow accent'.
I can't help but think that this whole thing has been cynically stage-managed by Labour to show that they too have members of a 'victim' group on their front bench.
More Westminster trivia, while the Sun adds gipsies to the list of viciously scapegoated ethnic minorities in this ugly, ugly pre-election campaign.
Diggedy Derek said:Glasgow? Yeah right. That's just bizarre.