black roots - white fruits
- Thread starter Alfons
- Start date
CHAOTROPIC
on account
I dunno, I used to think they were alright
The points are valid but "this music like all other music is originated on african/black experience" is overegging the proverbial, surely. Is he really saying that black people 'invented' music, or 'own' it as some kindof racial inheritance, with every white musician condemned to be a parasitic racially-inferior tourist? Sheep pretending to be lions? I am reading him right? I'm guessing it's a phone interview & he got carried away with his own rhetoric or something, 'cos it makes sense apart from that ridiculous 'ALL'.
sodiumnightlife
Sweet Virginia
Not like I can ignore any of those things, but I also refuse to let them temper my reaction to a "think piece" that wasn't really very well thought out and contained a lot of iffy statements. Racism's still racism, whoever propogates it.
this is probably true, but for me thats not the key issue. it can't be about blame, its got to be about solutions, and so getting defensive is the wrong (if understandable) way to go imo, its about thinking how best to engage these kinds of attitudes and move beyond these perceptions and divisions... whether we like it or not the memories of colonial or other racial oppression are very fresh in the minds (or in fact an every day part of the lives) of many, many people, and the way that those memories or situations form the understanding of anyone's actions imo are very important things to take into account when deciding how it is best to act as an individual
don't get me wrong i don't think i have the answers, im thinking out loud cos i've been reading / working on a few things which relate to this issue so i have a few relatively underdeveloped thoughts on it
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straight
wings cru
i dont take any offence from the (heavy handed and simplisticc) views on the record business. But I do from a man who is treated like a god and then insults a new generation of producers on purely ethnic grounds. what happened to being flattered when someone emulates you? doesnt that mean you are doing something right? especially in a genre (or sound sculpture park, whatever) as founded on appropriation and outright thievery as house/techno.
yes those are precisely the perceptions i was referring to
no it doesn't give carte blanche. but it does make it different, and requires a different response. it most likely will indeed alienate white people, and further entrench division. but, alternatively, people, particularly white people, could instead try to understand and sympathise with that kind of perspective, and look for ways to work past it... as everyone has said and i think everyone agrees, his arguments have significant holes, and therefore the negativity in his views could be addressed through positive rather than negative dialogue
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
That's an admirably upbeat take on things - I'm picturing you as a goatee'd, roll-neck-sweatered counsellor (in the nicest possible way, really!
).I deleted my last post out of a sort of second-order white guilt that it's kind of pointless for me to be getting worked up about something that doesn't really have anything to do with me (beyond the general fact that it's about society, so it obviously has something to do with *everyone*) and I'm not exactly as clued up as some people on here are about the music industry and all that jazz.
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Gabba Flamenco Crossover
High Sierra Skullfuck
Apart from the 'no business being at' line, it comes over as being more paranoid than racist. It would make more sense if there were pop producers racing up the charts with thinly disguised knock offs of Theo's sound, but the last time I looked there weren't...
i'm not saying that there aren't significant problems with what parrish is saying, it's just that when an established power dynamic exists where one group of people are significantly less empowered than another i.e. the day to day experience of white people *in general* vs the day to day experience of people of colour *in general* those at the more empowered end of the relationship can't really go round accusing those at the less empowered end of the same prejudices they are accused of — accused of most of the time because, either consciously or unconsciously, they're guilty, incidentally.
even if there are some pretty ugly prejudices out there in almost every community, directed to almost every other community, white people claiming that black people are "racist" just doesn't wash or make a great deal of sense. (and even if the not making sense doesn't matter to you, the fact that it makes you look like a knob probably should). prejudice doesn't mean anything at all without the weight of privilege and power behind it. if you're white, calling black people racist is massively insensitive to the history behind the views you find offensive and presents a completely off-whack perception of your own position in this dynamic. put bluntly, parrish is saying white people shouldn't go raving; white american society has dictated all his life that he's a lot less likely to be able to hail a cab, more likely to end up in jail, and more likely to die violently - who's really getting the shitty deal here?
white people calling black people racists (in general) is like straight people accusing gay people of heterophobia or men accusing women of sexism ie totally ridiculous. the only time it isn't is when, as in the case of our last discussion of racism here (a certain poster versus every eastern european immigrant in the uk), it's delivered from a similar position of privilege and power. in that case: "i am english, i have the passport, i've been here longer, you're taking our jobs, you're animals, fuck off back to your own country etc". it's that claiming and assertion of a very real power that made it so bad.
especially interesting here is the fact that parrish's arguments really fall down with his discussion of latino people as white
even if there are some pretty ugly prejudices out there in almost every community, directed to almost every other community, white people claiming that black people are "racist" just doesn't wash or make a great deal of sense. (and even if the not making sense doesn't matter to you, the fact that it makes you look like a knob probably should). prejudice doesn't mean anything at all without the weight of privilege and power behind it. if you're white, calling black people racist is massively insensitive to the history behind the views you find offensive and presents a completely off-whack perception of your own position in this dynamic. put bluntly, parrish is saying white people shouldn't go raving; white american society has dictated all his life that he's a lot less likely to be able to hail a cab, more likely to end up in jail, and more likely to die violently - who's really getting the shitty deal here?
white people calling black people racists (in general) is like straight people accusing gay people of heterophobia or men accusing women of sexism ie totally ridiculous. the only time it isn't is when, as in the case of our last discussion of racism here (a certain poster versus every eastern european immigrant in the uk), it's delivered from a similar position of privilege and power. in that case: "i am english, i have the passport, i've been here longer, you're taking our jobs, you're animals, fuck off back to your own country etc". it's that claiming and assertion of a very real power that made it so bad.
especially interesting here is the fact that parrish's arguments really fall down with his discussion of latino people as white
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noel emits
a wonderful wooden reason
'The music industry , like most huge industries, is owned by white men.'
No, the music industry, like most huge industries, is owned by RICH white men.
Being oppressed, ripped off and crapped on is not the preserve of black people or black musicians, although they may be sometimes better placed to see it in a more intensified form and/or be more conscious of the reasons behind it. These days that should be considered an advantage if anything.
I think a lot of what he says there is, or was - things are obviously changing fast for the big music industry entities, quite true but he's going way too far in mapping a 'black experience' dynamic on to it. One's experience of the music industry may be such and such a thing but it's not reasonable to come to the conclusion that it's ALL because you are black, a lot of that is just how it is for MOST people. It's important to make that distinction and not get hung up on that negatively reinforced paranoia cos that's actually where a lot of racism and prejudice in other forms comes from, and it clouds one's view to the real issues. Chip on the shoulder innit.
No, the music industry, like most huge industries, is owned by RICH white men.
Being oppressed, ripped off and crapped on is not the preserve of black people or black musicians, although they may be sometimes better placed to see it in a more intensified form and/or be more conscious of the reasons behind it. These days that should be considered an advantage if anything.
I think a lot of what he says there is, or was - things are obviously changing fast for the big music industry entities, quite true but he's going way too far in mapping a 'black experience' dynamic on to it. One's experience of the music industry may be such and such a thing but it's not reasonable to come to the conclusion that it's ALL because you are black, a lot of that is just how it is for MOST people. It's important to make that distinction and not get hung up on that negatively reinforced paranoia cos that's actually where a lot of racism and prejudice in other forms comes from, and it clouds one's view to the real issues. Chip on the shoulder innit.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Stelfox, no-one here is claiming "black people are racist". Theo Parrish said a couple of things, in an interview, that could be construed as racist; that doesn't even necessarily make him racist, just prone to daft generalisations and having a chip on his shoulder. Theo Parrish ≠ black people.
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nor am i saying that anyone did. someone called theo parrish racist. he is black. my reasoning stands
Gabba Flamenco Crossover
High Sierra Skullfuck
I noticed how he talked about 'certain non-black producers' in the positive comments right at the end. I interpreted that as a move to a more neutral term from someone for whom the word 'white' is always a natural insult. But it could also be about excluding latino people from the black experience, or granting them 'step-child' status, you're right.
I've got mixed feelings about your post as a whole. On the strictest of levels I don't agree. I think racism is the negative prejudice of individuals along racial lines, and the refusal to acknowledge that individuals can transcend that (which Theo eventually does, grudgingly).
But I wouldn't argue with your contention that in the real world, racists can only really make thier mark when they get into a position where they can impose thier views on others.
sodiumnightlife
Sweet Virginia
I get a lot of what you're saying stelfox but I don't understand how black people can't be racist, unless you consider racism just to be the persecution of black people by whites? If so, fair enough, but that's not my understanding of racism.
i'm not saying that either. i'll refer everyone back to the bit about gay heterophobes, the concept of matriarchy, female/male sexism. it's not that it prejudices don't exist or that's it's impossible for any non-white person to be racially prejudiced. it's just that it's not as insitutionalised and that power dynamic renders it less meaningful. this is simple stuff.
i'd rather say what he's saying is stupid and short-sighted.
i'd rather say what he's saying is stupid and short-sighted.
crackerjack
Well-known member
And I'm sure we all understand that. But upthread you implied that we should do everything possible to tiptoe around calling a black man racist, even when he is being just thaty. If you object to the r-word in this context, I think the onus is on you to tell us which pejoratives are acceptable.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
There's some question as to whether or not Theo Parrish is actually in a position of privilege and power relative to white dance artists and audiences, though, or at least whether they're in a position of privilege and power relative to him. I don't know much about his background but he's university educated and a respected techno producer. And the parties where the belleville 3 began - parties where white people 'didn't belong' - were distinctly well heeled affairs. So the idea that because he's black he's automatically in the role of the oppressed seems a bit reductionist.
no he is not. Because racism involves not only prejudice but also power. that's what Stelfox said about three different ways. Racist statements are statements that have the backdrop of social power.
It's not tiptoeing, it's avoiding inaccuracy and avoiding contributing to blinkered ideas about power in society.
You could say Parrish is being prejudiced, or mean, or short-sighted, or something else if you don't agree with him. But it really eliminates something meaningful to equate a black person being prejudiced against whites and a white person being prejudiced against blacks. It ignores the larger power dynamic that supports white prejudice and makes the effects of white prejudice systemic (not hailing cabs, not getting loans, being more likely to be shot by police
the "acceptable perjorative" question is just silly. It's not about what's acceptable, it's about what's accurate and true. "Racist" is not just an insult, it means something - it means that the racist act contributes to and relies on racial hierarchy in society.
I'm surprised at the level of anger in this thread. I thought he got a bit sweeping at the end (the last two paragraphs), and that he didn't raise the other racial issues (latino, asian, etc) as much as he could, but on the whole I thought much of it didn't seem too inaccurate a description of how the American music industry has worked. it has worked in a racist way (big surprise).
crackerjack
Well-known member
No they're not, and saying it three, or as many different ways as you like, ain't gonna make it so. That blacks have suffered more from white racism than vice versa (and women than men etc etc) isn't in dispute, but that doesn't give you carte blanche to redefine the language.