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Thread: Music as id

  1. #16
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    Don't underestimate how tricky this stuff is

  2. #17
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    I have a Reichian take on this, in that I don't think the id's aggression is as primary as it seems. I'll quote myself

    Firstly, I’d like to look at a model of Reich’s which I find has much explanatory power. He broke out character down into three “layers”. The first of these is a “social” layer, a veneer of good behaviour and politeness with which we interact in the social world. If we see this layer as partially a product of armouring and learnt restraint, we can see that underneath it might lie a second layer — of frustration, anti-social impulses, rage and so on. Where Reich really showed his insight was that he posited another layer beneath this, a part of us which is open, loving and vulnerable. Reich argued that this “core” is naturally decent and moral. It is the suppression and suffocation of this layer, through the events of our birth and childhood that produces armouring. I only have to think about which emotions I have easiest “access” to, to see the validity of these ideas real openness and tenderness seem much more affecting and come from a much more guarded place.

    Often one finds expression of the second layer touted as somehow iconoclastic. Anything one has been told not to do — be it violence, promiscuity, substance abuse or shitting on someone’s doorstep — any acts which break the social veneer prove how “liberated” or “crazy” one is one. Sometimes these impulses are presented as our “true” inner self, which everyone would act out if only they weren’t so repressed. From a Reichian perspective, a lot of these acts, rather than being “liberated” are simply one more layer of our defences, a way of warding off deep feeling. I’m much more interested in the first layer — that point of surrender, openness and vulnerability. A lot of occult practises – and the “outsider stance” one often encounters in occultists — seems to me to be a shield from this openness and simply another way of armouring.

    Last edited by DannyL; 23-11-2019 at 05:29 PM.

  3. #18
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    How would you use that to think about music Danny? And specifically music as id

  4. #19
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    The music of winners is unfreighted by doubt. Say compare that Katie Perry song to the Elgin Marbles (lol). The Greeks were winners, saw themselves as such, but their art has death boiled into it due to its scientific concentration on the actual physical form (though idealised). Actually what's also helped those statues out, perversely, is how damaged and decayed they are. There's something more approachable and organic about them as a result, and can't help but cause you to think about physical decay.

    Maybe I'm thinking more of the id as the opposite to the ideal.
    Αι ψυχαί οσμώνται καθ΄ Άιδην.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    How would you use that to think about music Danny? And specifically music as id
    I don't as such. I think it's worth challenging Freudian orthodoxies though. I'll think on it. I do think music draws a lot of power from its id-expressions, I just question whether that's the kind of bottom of the hierarchy. Is there not anything else we can get to whether it's expressed musically or not

  6. #21
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    Is conceptronica super-ego music?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    I have a possibly not sufficiently examined belief that the ID is the only motor. That the higher centres of consciousness are inert and impotent without it's rude energies.
    that is why AI is a non-starter

    it would have no motivation - motivation comes from the base elements, the lower depths - body, reptilian brain stem, glands, hormones, endochrine, nervous system - the senses, the psychomotor, etc

    AI could write a facsimile poem, or make a facsimile joke, but it wouldn't have the drive to pull it off, cos it couldn't feel it -

    even the purest refined upper reaches of consciousness, like those of a mathematician, are still impelled by some drive rooted in the animal - ego, mastering the environment, the hunt

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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsey View Post
    I think there's definitely evidence of this in all art forms.

    Even look at the most "classicist" artworks of all(?), the Elgin marbles - all veiny muscular violence and sexily sprawled women and men.

    Perhaps this could even be mapped to the middlebrow thing? A fudging between one or the other?
    was gonna say, visual art surely offers the best evidence for the "id as sole motor" theory. so many artists have achieved mastery of their craft seemingly just to depict really idealized, sexualized people. you used to have to say that you were depicting history or mythology to make that sort of art respectible, now you can say its character design for a video game. the artists themselves are often surprisingly "cool" as well. for example I always assumed from his art that frank frazetta must have been a total nerd irl, but really he looked like this.


    I guess the music equivalent of frank frazetta types would be edm producers / DJs
    Last edited by mvuent; 25-11-2019 at 04:05 AM.

  10. #24
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    Do you lot understand the thing I was worrying at? Or have I not explained it properly?

    Droid might not think this at all but it's what I understood him to be saying implicitly without actually saying it

  11. #25
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    That what here we are designating as id and considering an unavoidable essential part of our nature may in fact be a kind of implant for control purpose or bred into us for control purposes and the thing to do is disable reroute around it short circuit it transcend it disavow and disown it

  12. #26
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    That what we are calling id is the key component of the fascist character. (Dogs are fascist)

  13. #27
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    nvm this topic is probably beyond my paygrade for now lol
    Last edited by mvuent; 25-11-2019 at 04:08 AM.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvuent View Post
    so then you're questioning this belief, not proposing it?
    I'm Saying I'm questioning it because I hold it
    Last edited by luka; 24-11-2019 at 09:12 PM.

  15. #29
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    I'm saying, this has been my basic assumption for the last 1000 years. It seems to fit some of the facts. Does it fit all of them? And what problems emerge from believing this to be true? Is it a kind of moral laziness? Etc

  16. #30
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    Wikipedia page on sublimation

    [3] In the opening section of Human, All Too Human entitled 'Of first and last things', Nietzsche wrote:

    There is, strictly speaking, neither unselfish conduct, nor a wholly disinterested point of view. Both are simply sublimations in which the basic element seems almost evaporated and betrays its presence only to the keenest observation. All that we need and that could possibly be given us in the present state of development of the sciences, is a chemistry of the moral, religious, aesthetic conceptions and feeling, as well as of those emotions which we experience in the affairs, great and small, of society and civilization, and which we are sensible of even in solitude. But what if this chemistry established the fact that, even in its domain, the most magnificent results were attained with the basest and most despised ingredients? Would many feel disposed to continue such investigations? Mankind loves to put by the questions of its origin and beginning: must one not be almost inhuman in order to follow the opposite course?[4]

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