bleep 'n' bass -- an anachronistic term?

[dominic]

it was the brooklyn lot that did all the orig mashups of uk and us dance tunes with an 808 behind them etc, famous one is women beat their men that nicks voodoo ray, he was pissed off about that.

actually there's an appallingly bad mash-up of "voodoo ray" and kelis' "milkshake" out & about right now ------ take two brilliant songs, mash them together, and get a really poor result

 

[michael]

Carmina Burana

Normally when people are chatting about 'Carmina Burana' they're referring only to 'O Fortuna', which opens the whole thing, and which is over in about 1 1/2 minutes.

As might be obvious from the title, it's a hymn to the goddess Fortune. Lyrically not exactly chirpy, but nothing that strikes me as Nazi. Not that I've ever read or heard Nazi propaganda, so not sure if these kinds of themes abound or what.

To digress further... Blissblogger cited Carmina Burana getting called "entartete" (degenerate). Holger Czukay of Can described his own music as entartete and sought to create music that might fit the term. I wonder if the term was used a bit in Nazi era Germany, and if it means more than just if an english speaker announced s/he was intending to make "degenerate music". Perhaps like if an American said s/he was making "Unamerican music"... there's these implications of anti-fascist that would be known to those who know some history, whereas the surface meaning is a bit different.

Couldn't find anything on Czukay's site, but doing a bit of a google gave me links that suggest it is a term like "Unamerican", which subversive artists attempted to reclaim as a reaction against an oppressive state.

 

[michael]

BTW, was Apotheosis's 'O Fortuna' a Belgian record? Is that what's being referred to above as the "the crucial classical referent for Belg-core" by Blissblogger?

 

[dominic]

BTW, was Apotheosis's 'O Fortuna' a Belgian record? Is that what's being referred to above as the "the crucial classical referent for Belg-core" by Blissblogger?

yes

 

[Melchior]

As might be obvious from the title, it's a hymn to the goddess Fortune. Lyrically not exactly chirpy, but nothing that strikes me as Nazi. Not that I've ever read or heard Nazi propaganda, so not sure if these kinds of themes abound or what.

I have read a lot of nazi propaganda, and it doesn't ave very much in common with the themes you find there at all. No reference to blood, soil, people etc.

 

[hamarplazt]

off The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music

"He studied at the Munich Academy and later, in 1920, with Kaminski. In 1924, with Dorothee Günther, he founded a school for gymnastics, music and dance, and out of this came his later activity in providing materials for young children to make music, using their voices and simple percussion instruments. His adult works also seek to make contact with primitive kinds of musical behaviour, as represented by ostinato, pulsation and direct vocal expression of emotion; in this he was influenced by Stravinsky (Oedipus rex, The Wedding), though the models are coarsened to produce music of a powerful pagan sensual appeal and physical excitement. All his major works, including the phenomenally successful Carmina burana (1937), were designed as pageants for the stage; they include several versions of Greek tragedies and Bavarian comedies. "

Sounds well ravey.

Yeah, but most of his stuff isn't ravey at all though. His later works are some of the most static, brooding pieces of classical music I've ever heard - theatrical greek recitation and almost silent percussion and not much else... for hours!!!

 

[hamarplazt]

do you mean stuff like anticappella???

Don't know, I don't know anticapella.

Some examples: Antico: We Need Freedom; Tortura: Disco Damnation; Tech - Maker: Trackin' Stuff; UXO: Submariner; Double Z: Snap Tech; F15: Feel the Beat; PMW: Are You Ready to Move; RTFR: Extrasyn; MIG 23: Mig 23...

The italians never really made any of the big hits, but they pumped out tons of scenious stuff.

 

[hamarplazt]

stuff like westbam i always thought pretty weak

I actually bought his first LP some time ago, and yeah, pretty weak despite some good momets. But he was much more a kind of hip house thing back then. I'm thinking of stuff like Time Modem, Friends/Enemies of Carlotta, Recall IV, Klangwerk, Scrot, 9-10 Boy (Tanith), O/Cybex Factor (Martin Damm)... I think most of these were lapsed EBM-producers turned to techno through New Beat.

"we came in peace for all mankind" -- this is a sound that evoved into trance music by 1992

Yeah, that was Dance to Trance. Not what I'm thinking of here, but a great track nevertheless. "Freaks" too. In many ways, trance is a EBM descendant too.

 

[dominic]

Don't know, I don't know anticapella.

Some examples: Antico: We Need Freedom; Tortura: Disco Damnation; Tech - Maker: Trackin' Stuff; UXO: Submariner; Double Z: Snap Tech; F15: Feel the Beat; PMW: Are You Ready to Move; RTFR: Extrasyn; MIG 23: Mig 23...

The italians never really made any of the big hits, but they pumped out tons of scenious stuff.

yeah -- too obscure for me!!! -- which isn't to say i haven't heard it (standard match the memory w/ track name game)

so you must have already been a serious record buyer back in 1991??? or perhaps even a dj?

or rather, one of the things that always struck me about uk student life -- and i lived in uk as student back in 92/93 -- was the fact that all these students rec'd money from the govt at the start of each trimester and would then used the money to buy records!!! -- athough i'm probably putting the cart in front of the horse on this one, as there were surely many working class kids who didn't go to university (and so rec'd no check from govt) also buying records -- the entire generation was mad for 12" records

ALSO -- isn't it weird that italians made so much rave music when there wasn't even a rave scene in italy -- or if there was a scene, certainly not on same scale as uk or belgium ------ or am i ignorant of the actual facts? ----- that is, isn't it an important part of the "scenius" theory that the producers hit the clubs and raves each weekend to see which tracks are cracking, which tracks work, etc, etc -- so with the italians you had scenius w/o the scene!!!!! -- or perhaps that's why they were eclipsed, i.e., they had the dance know-how from italo disco and black box times -- but once rave scene exploded elsewhere, they got eclipsed by populist creativity

 

[jimbackhouse]

actually i've been trying to id & track down this record that goes "we are taking every precaution" over a breakbeat -- and then it has another sample that goes something like "over wakka-wakka-hot, over wakka-wakka-hot" -- and then a looped piano riff that is at once funky & militant ------ i had been working on the assumption that it was uk proto-junglistic, but a friend recently suggested to me that this may be a frank de wulf track -- came out in late summer 1991, as i used to tape this show called "hillbilly house" that caned it for like two or three months straight back then ------- does anybody here have any idea what track i'm talking about???

it's called 'precaution' by exposure to little electronic noises; on stealth records. it's on the first 'reactivate' compilation too, and the first 3 or 4 volumes of that are as good a primer on bombastic belgian rave as you can get (just avoid the other 15+ volumes!)

 

[dominic]

it's called 'precaution' by exposure to little electronic noises; on stealth records. it's on the first 'reactivate' compilation too, and the first 3 or 4 volumes of that are as good a primer on bombastic belgian rave as you can get (just avoid the other 15+ volumes!)

brilliant!!! -- thanks -- not sure why it never before occurred to me to try to have dissensus people id tracks for me -- but prepare yourselves for a glut of vague descriptions of obscure records!

 

[Landfill Elektronikz]

BLEEP & BASS DOUBLE-HEADER ON THE GUTTERBREAKZ 'BEATBOX'

By special request, Sweet Exorcist's "Test Three", plus "Dissonance" by Xon (Richard H Kirk and Robert Gordon) which still sounds like the future to me. Nice appropriation of Cybotron's "Techno City" in there too.

Sheffield 1990-91: Frankly, I still haven't recovered.

 

[hamarplazt]

so you must have already been a serious record buyer back in 1991??? or perhaps even a dj?

No no, I was just slowly beginning to buy records back then, and not even techno yet (didn't begin with that until '93). The thing is that I just love the old school rave sound so much that I buy almost everything I can find + I once got a huge load of records from someone who actually was a serious record buying DJ back in '91.

ALSO -- isn't it weird that italians made so much rave music when there wasn't even a rave scene in italy -- or if there was a scene, certainly not on same scale as uk or belgium ------ or am i ignorant of the actual facts? ----- that is, isn't it an important part of the "scenius" theory that the producers hit the clubs and raves each weekend to see which tracks are cracking, which tracks work, etc, etc -- so with the italians you had scenius w/o the scene!!!!! -- or perhaps that's why they were eclipsed, i.e., they had the dance know-how from italo disco and black box times -- but once rave scene exploded elsewhere, they got eclipsed by populist creativity

I think there was a scene, but mostly a holiday scene - all those places like... emm... well, I don't know the names of such places, but those beach party towns for young people who had taken a week off to drink and dance and so on.... I think they played rave back then... at least, thats's where they hached italo disco and piano house I'm pretty sure. But the know how is certainly a part of it too... basically, if you take an italo piano track and exchange the piano vamps with buzzing, agressive synth sounds, make the overall sound a bit more harsh, and the tempo a bit faster, you've got an old school rave track. And those italian producrs was professionals more than anything... if a new sound was ruling and money could be made, they just changed their style.

 

[blissblogger]

italorave

Rimini was the centre of it, i think

 

[nomos]

Lovely. Thanks Nick.

 

[Pearsall]

I think the Italians have had a rave scene for a while (they were always heavily represented at London free parties when I was into that scene), it just never broke as big there as it did in northern Europe. Italy is home to a large amount of today's hardstyle and hardcore, too.

Simon's right, Rimini has been pretty central. I've been there many years ago (out of season though) and it's basically an Italian Blackpool. I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading an interview with an English dj who had spent some summers working as a resident at one of the clubs in Rimini, and apparently they are (or at least were) very ostentatious and fancy, because they were all owned by mafiosi who used them for money-laundering (as well as as status symbols).

 

[mms]

I think the Italians have had a rave scene for a while (they were always heavily represented at London free parties when I was into that scene), it just never broke as big there as it did in northern Europe. Italy is home to a large amount of today's hardstyle and hardcore, too.

Simon's right, Rimini has been pretty central. I've been there many years ago (out of season though) and it's basically an Italian Blackpool. I can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading an interview with an English dj who had spent some summers working as a resident at one of the clubs in Rimini, and apparently they are (or at least were) very ostentatious and fancy, because they were all owned by mafiosi who used them for money-laundering (as well as as status symbols).

yeah rome had some wicked techno labels, very hard dark druggy stuff. stuff like sounds never seen. acv,
artists, d'arcangelo, leo anibaldi, marco passarani and lory d, marco lenzi.
lory was a particuar favorite in rome, an amazing dj and a big hero.
the italians in london came from silverfish, alex silverfish who ran the shop and put on lots of good,heavy eurotechno nights is now a mid op transexual, which is odd cos he was always a big guy, now he's a skinny woman who dj's at nag nag nag.
marco lenzi now helps run eukatech which is next gen italian stuff and eurotechno.

 

[Pearsall]

Wasn't there a band called Silverfish as well? Were they connected? Reaching well back now into my memory now.

Yeah, Eukatech is a great shop, probably the best place for techno in London.

Italy has always put out a lot of good quality dance music, imo they're probably the third best in Europe in terms of consistency over the years after the Brits and the Germans.

 

[mms]

Wasn't there a band called Silverfish as well? Were they connected? Reaching well back now into my memory now.

Italy has always put out a lot of good quality dance music, imo they're probably the third best in Europe in terms of consistency over the years after the Brits and the Germans.

they were a (rather good, female vocalled up) hardcore band, no connections i think.
i'd agree with you about italy, altho alot of italo came out of canada, and alot of the ebm type bands

 

[dominic]

i completely agree that the italians have made a lot of great dance music, though had been unaware of their talent for dark techno

i just didn't think there was much of a rave scene there in 90/91/92 -- i always thought that rimini was british tourists, same as ibiza -- the flying records/cowboy records crowd and that sort of thing, which was contemporaneous w/ belgian hardcore

i'm perhaps too eager to pigeonhole