UKG vs UKG vs UKG

[captain pineapple]

Hi All,

From some of the comments I've seen here so far, it would seem that Grime is the flavour of the minute (or sound of the future, depending on your outlook ). As a dumbass foreigner who only has access to this scene through the vinyl I've bought over the years, I have a few questions on how people who are a bit physically closer to things percieve what has come before and where it will go. A year or two ago, it was my understanding that 8-bar went down like a lead balloon in the clubs. Has this changed? - it doesn't strike me as very clubby music. And if so, how do people enjoy this music? At home, or out and about at different types of events? Battles? Car stereos? (I guess the pirates have a lot to do with this).

From comment's I've seen on woebot's blog, it would seem that 2 step is "over". I really appreciate this style of music, and I come from a city whose populace only recently embraced it once the tunes had been around a while. I note that some of the old producers (DJ Fen, Wideboys et al) are still (re)releasing the odd tune, but there's only a trickle of records, compared to the massive wave around 2000/01. Is this style still around in the clubs, or is it just dead? I imagine that people over there have had it rammed down their throats for a good long while, so it kind of makes sense. Will it ever resurface?

4/4: This is the 'old skool' sound of UKG, but still seems to be prominent in a few places. What is the perception of this style? Many artists who were big boosters of 2 step have moved into this format, and there's some pretty decent (for some definition of the word) releases coming out from Prolific, 2T4U, etc. Do people still enjoy this format, or is it perceived as chasing something that's long gone?

I for one would like to see 2step and 4/4 Garage emerge the way house did, as a format which has legs over a long time, rather than the 'flash in the pan' it seems to have been percieved as. But for that to happen, I guess it needs to go underground while Grime has the spotlight. Is there any evidence of this happening anywhere?

Ok, from my rudimentary questions, you can probably guess that I have little to no insight on the scene outside of really enjoying the music. But I do offer this: that after the "death" of 2 step last year, there are 3 distinct styles of UK Garage - 2step, 4x4 and Grime. None of which are prefixed with a 'UK'! Does this mean a greater possibility for international success than last time out? A british invasion of the US? I hope so.

Flame away folks!

 

[Backjob]

As a slight addendum to that, a friend of mine in London who is doing a photography project with a bunch of hackney kids who are aspiring mcs, told me that they split grime into two camps: "forward" (which they despise) and "bashment" (which they love).

D'you all reckon bashment garage just means the more street end of mc-oriented 8-bar, or does it actually mean tracks with bashment style mc-ing?

 

[simon silverdollar]

i haven't got direct experience of grime in a club, but there are big grime raves in london and outside; raves like wiley's eskimo dance, and young man standing, sidewinder, and the various 'birthday bashes' in celebration of a particular MC's/DJ's birthday. i think, though, that these raves are not regular things- it's not like weekly, or fortnightly. they seem to be more big, irregular special events. at these raves, the MC line up is really the big thing, rather than the dj line up. i'm not sure whether you'd call grime, or 8 bar, dance music or not. there are conflicting reports- some say that at the big grime raves people just stand around nodding to the lyrics, '8-mile' style, but some say that it can get very messy + full-on on the dancefloor when a big MC comes on the mic- from what some people say, it sounds like people MOSH!

so there is a fairly big rave scene- but it's very much MC focussed, with the audience going to see the MCs, and going crazy when their favourite MC comes on. there are also some MC battles at most grime raves, it seems.

as far as 2-step + 4/4 garage goes, just from listening to ads on the pirates there seems to be more regular raves of this kind than grime raves. there's still a massive audience for the more oldskool end of ukg, even if there isn't a great deal of new records being put out. like, at the moment there are more ukg than grime pirates operating in london. and even the really big grime pirates, such as rinse and freeze play loads of 2-step + 4/4.

personally, i think that 2-step is going to come back massively, but in a radically reconfigured form. often when there's a big fanbase for something, but it's not burdened with the 'next big thing' tag, that's when real invention happens. new things generally come from what's been ignored or put aside, but for which there's still a great deal of affection. i mean, grime can be seen like that- kids that grew up on jungle, and loved it, putting out something with had a similar intensity to it, but sounded completely different. and again, the initial rise of UKG seems to show a similar trend- people that were into US house, music that had been swamped out of the 'cutting edge' since the mid 90s in the uk, coming back with a radically new variant in the late 90s that took over.
sometimes the healthiest thing for a scene to do is NOT be seen as 'the sound of the future', but the sound of the past.

oh, and in answer to the question about fwd + bashment, 'fwd' is the name of a rave, which has become the name for the particular style of garage played there- generally, the darker, more breakbeaty end of things. not much in the way of melody, and with MCs taking a secondary role to the DJ. this is also known as the 'rinse fm' sound, and the 'croydon' sound [one the scene's biggest artists, plasticman, is from croydon, and croydon's big apple records is one of the hubs of this scene'] . the fact that those kids referred to their MC-style as 'bashment' is interesting, as it shows why the description of grime as 'uk hip hop' is often a little bit lazy- grime MCs owe just as much to dancehall MCs, -in terms of their rhythm, and tempo, and even accents sometimes, - as to us hip hop MCs.



wow, that was long!

 

[blissblogger]

okay then can someone

tell me what "bashment" means in musical terms -- i know what it refers to originally and understand the general vibe/sensibility. but if i went to a "bashment" event in London (fat chance), what would i actually hear? is it like a smorgasbord type deal of modern street beat type stuff

also while we're defining terms, what exactly is reggaeton?

ta

 

[simon silverdollar]

as fas as i understand, 'bashment' is a term for what's, perhaps more widely, called dancehall. like in ads for raves on pirate radio, they'll always say 'bashment', and not 'dancehall'. i guess may be it's the more hip-hop influenced side of dancehall- vybz cartel, sean paul, ward 21 and all that. i dunno. but that's what i always thought it was.

as for 'reggaeton'; fuck knows!

 

[Diggedy Derek]

Yeah I agree 2-step is gonna come back. It's not just a genre, I think, but almost a mindset. You see people on message boards with signatures like "2-Step Forever". That kind of bump-and-flex music is not only one 4 Da Ladeez, but also it fulfills the role of being anthemic, it lodges itself in the collective unconscious or whatever.

Even DJs like Cameo and Logan play a certain amount of 2-Step.

 

[mms]

i don't think 2 step will ever go away, the success of a tune like babyface says it all, people need a soppy hug at the end of the day. also 2 step is generally pirate daytime music, even on rinse or whatever, it all get,s heavier in the evenings. I liked a walk in the park by dj oddz recently.

as for the bashment thing, yep undoubtedly as early uk hip hop before it and rave mc's on grime tracks owe more to dancehall than US hip hop in alot of ways, people like saxon practically owned the double time thing, mcs like papa levi etc, and even some rave mc's , like the ragga twins came out of systems like Unity sounds, it also appears that alot of the main players in the scene's parents were involved in soundsystems and that..

 

[boomnoise]

also while we're defining terms, what exactly is reggaeton?

as i understand it reggaeton is a puerton rican music which mixes in hip hop. kinda like a latin reggae with beats. anyone care to go any further on this as my limited knowledge of it has been bothering me for a while now. Who are big reggaeton artists? And how has this stuff traveled?

 

[mms]

here is an article on reggeaton from ny times

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/07/a...3f7213baa89b46&ex=1375588800&partner=USERLAND

seems to differ from funky del morro, cos of the influences.

 

[Grievous Angel]

saying 2step will come back is exactly like saying ardkore will come back.

see what i mean?

who will be the remarc of 2step?

paul"2stepwasthegreatestmusicevermadewiththepossibleexceptionofraggajungle"meme

 

[droid]

as fas as i understand, 'bashment' is a term for what's, perhaps more widely, called dancehall. like in ads for raves on pirate radio, they'll always say 'bashment', and not 'dancehall'. i guess may be it's the more hip-hop influenced side of dancehall- vybz cartel, sean paul, ward 21 and all that. i dunno. but that's what i always thought it was.

As far as Im aware, if there is any real distinction between ragga/dancehall and bashment, its a fairly subtle one... there might be a bit more of a slackness/gangsta thing (if thats possible) associated with 'bashment tune' but ive often heard it used to describe 'pure vibes' music, or 'party' dancehall.. as i think the word originally comes from the term 'to have a bash'- 'bash' meaning party or event of some kind.

Im just wondering how all the dancehall heads feel about the blatant rip off of their word! What if they retaliate and start calling their scene 'math-rock' or something?

This could be the start of the inter-genre wars!!!

 

[bun-u]

I think there's a time-lag aspect to some of these scenes, old jungle acts were selling quite well until recently simply because the kids who loved it in their teens had purchasing power in their 20s (both in buying the records, going to raves) and now its the same with 2 step. I've noticed that virtually all the records I hear on the pirates and see in the garage section at hmv oxford st are ones from 98/99. maybe grime's real payday will be around 2010?! also, there a geographical dimension - seems to be the home counties/m25 towns than where the hardcore 2 steppers live

 

[Landfill Elektronikz]

Ah! I'd been fretting over the whole 'bashment' definition thing, so this thread comes at the perfect time. And I can now assume that what I've been calling 'Rephlex Grime' is actually called 'Forward'?

When's the 'intelligent grime' scene due to commence? Early next year?

 

[blissblogger]

FWD versus Forward/Wonder

and to add more confusion the hottest grime riddim of the moment is called FWD and has about 18 mcs on it and about as far from the croydon/rinse FM type stuff as you can get

(or is Lethal B's track actually properly spelt 'Forward' for even MORE confusion?- on my white label it's just felt tipped as FWD)

where incidentally is Wonder situated in this -- he's done stuff on dumpvalve right (whose mixcd on Deuce i thought was quite rotten) but also the amazing track with Kano on it, 'what have you done'

plus his track 'what' is like so perfectly situated between 8-bar and Croydon T'ing -- the Grime/Grimm (exqueeze me) knife edge

 

[simon silverdollar]

i'd say wonder is 'grime' rather than fwd, but it's not like there's a clear distinction between the two scenes- plasticman's tracks get played on MC shows- 'cha' is a particular favourite with a lot of crews. and slimzee, now one of the main fwd people still plays some grime on his pirate shows. there's some cross pollination.

has anyone hear wiley's 'morgue'? it's a totally blatant rip-off of wonder's 'what'.

it's all about popambient-grime now though. it's a new genre i made up. that slowed down, brittle melodic sound, like ruff sqwad + wiley's 'ground zero' and 'fire hydrant' and davinche's 'baby' and 'mishmash'.

 

[mms]

[where incidentally is Wonder situated in this -- he's done stuff on dumpvalve right (whose mixcd on Deuce i thought was quite rotten) but also the amazing track with Kano on it, 'what have you done'


really like that "what have you done" track with kano, reminds me of the chef rekwon stuff from the wu tang days , like rainy days on his first album.

he's done the beats for one of the better tracks on the new dizzie album too. the riddim is avaliable on the 12 of that slimzee bingo mix, he was also on the telly in some urban talent spotters competition to do beats on channel 4, quite weird, fatman scoop who probably has one of the doziest ears in hip hop was judging it, he's also forward regular.

rico's defintley there too in a sense, that gangsta track over wizzbit's poppadam riddim last year straddled the genres quite tidily.


in another sense, one of the most dubbiest of dubsteppers loefah's new one horrorshow is getting mc'ed over quite alot.

as for intelligent grime, obviously fuck that. you can't blame rephlex for that whatever problems you have withem.

 

[redcrescent]

@blissblogger, @simon silverdollar:
Try googling for "reggeton", too. Seems the spelling is flexible.
Don't know any artists apart from NY-based Ivy Queen, who has worked with Wyclef Jean.
I've heard there is a good, recent (Aug. '04) mix CD by a certain DJ Frank entitled Power of Reggeton on Universal. Get it here, but I don't know or endorse this site.
Another high profile release here, with sound.
Short intro on reggeton as a genre here.
Re.: Funky del morro / baile funk: I know that Rio Baile Funk and some of the Funk Neurotico comps, Diplo of Hollertronix (soon to appear, in a mouthwatering lineup, with Kano, Wiley, et. al. in London, i.e. out of my orbit) who puts out crunk mixes, has also done one called Favela on Blast, any clues on where to find more or what I should check for?

 

[captain easychord]

has anyone hear wiley's 'morgue'? it's a totally blatant rip-off of wonder's 'what'.

WTF i've been hearing that all over sets and on the creeper mixtape... i thought for sure that it was some remix business. i swear he sampled that high chimey sound right off the wonder track.

 

[Backjob]

Reggaeton

Noreaga's new single "oye mi canto" is reggaeton, cos he has a po' rican background, and it features Tego Calderon who, as i understand it, is one of the biggest reggaeton artists out there. All the reggaeton I've heard has that staggered dancehall beat coupled with g-funk type synths and latin rapping. It's pretty good.

 

[DavidD]

I just got this:

http://www.blazinmixtapes.com/Blazin2K4/DJs/Misc/Danny-S-Reggaeton-Party-2K4.htm
in the mail today and it's amazing, as far as Reggaeton goes its one of the best mixes I've heard. I also heard something called "Reggaeton Desafio" and it seemed nice as well but not quite as great as this mixtape.

Can someone recommend some grime releases from this year? I'm from the U.S. and am completely out of touch with this stuff aside from the two Dizzee albums, the Wiley album and that Wonder/Kano song.