Nationalism, immigration and racism in the EU

[yyaldrin]

Maybe it's different for someone not in the UK, I dunno. But comparing the EU to Nazi Germany has been a favourite bit of rhetoric for politicians and journalists here who are themselves on the hard (or far) right for decades. The campaigns to leave the EU, especially the one led by Nigel Farage and his lot, focused overwhelmingly on immigration, and particularly immigration by Muslims, despite the fact that Muslims are generally not coming here from Poland and Romania. But they made a huge deal out of Turkey's supposedly imminent joining of the EU, which oddly enough still hasn't happened in the eight years since the referendum and shows no sign of happening any time soon. Predictably, there was a big rise in hate crimes against immigrants in the run-up to the referendum and its aftermath, regardless of whether they were from EU countries or not.

As far as us "dodging a bullet" goes, nothing has got better here since 2016 and a load of things have got measurably worse. The shortage of doctors, nurses and carers, which was already bad, has got a lot worse, and since we're no longer covered by EU environmental regulations there is barely a single major river here that isn't choked with farm effluent and human shit.

So the idea that any "left-wing" person could look at this and say "This is a good policy and I'm glad it's happened" strikes me as completely fucking insane.

if you go to any european city you can see the bulgarians, romanians and polish people rotting away under tunnels and bridges, they have been lured here to work for a terrible wage and no social securities whatsover. it's just a way to exploit the poor from other countries. the eu is pushing black and brown people back to open sea to drown there, it's paying dictators in tunisia and libiya to send back immigrants in the desert to starve there, it's building camps in non-eu states to imprison immigrants there. i know how lavish the eu officials live in brussels, and how their working day exists of going from one lunch to another lunch, all payed for by taxpayers of course. the entire city is full of lobbyist giving away little treats here and there. so yeh i can see why some people see the eu as a fascist caucasian ethnobloc, even if that is a hyperbole.

x.com

x.com

 

[mixed_biscuits]

The shortage of doctors, nurses and carers,

But, as Wes Streeting has pointed out, nicking them from poorer countries so that they then have the shortage is immoral. It's time we grew our own.

 

[hmg]

It's not going to end well. What are the going to do when cheap robots entirely supplant low-skilled labour? Mill about in shopping precincts worrying grannies? So short sighted. Criminally so.

 

[hmg]

Seriously, omnicompetent androids could be staffing hospitals and care homes before the decade’s out. £20,000 a pop one time and no need to house and feed them and their families in the nation's once charming cities.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Seriously, omnicompetent androids could be staffing hospitals and care homes before the decade’s out. £20,000 a pop one time and no need to house and feed them and their families in the nation's once charming cities.

Doctors' diagnostic abilities, in my experience, would benefit hugely from AI assistance, or even just a basic checklist as used on the 111 service.

 

[version]

As far as us "dodging a bullet" goes, nothing has got better here since 2016 and a load of things have got measurably worse. The shortage of doctors, nurses and carers, which was already bad, has got a lot worse, and since we're no longer covered by EU environmental regulations there is barely a single major river here that isn't choked with farm effluent and human shit.

A country outside the EU can still do those things, mind you. We've just had a succession of governments who didn't want to.

 

[Mr. Tea]

if you go to any european city you can see the bulgarians, romanians and polish people rotting away under tunnels and bridges, they have been lured here to work for a terrible wage and no social securities whatsover. it's just a way to exploit the poor from other countries. the eu is pushing black and brown people back to open sea to drown there, it's paying dictators in tunisia and libiya to send back immigrants in the desert to starve there, it's building camps in non-eu states to imprison immigrants there. i know how lavish the eu officials live in brussels, and how their working day exists of going from one lunch to another lunch, all payed for by taxpayers of course. the entire city is full of lobbyist giving away little treats here and there. so yeh i can see why some people see the eu as a fascist caucasian ethnobloc, even if that is a hyperbole.

x.com

x.com

"Lured here to work for a terrible wage"?

If it wasn't better than what they could get back home, they wouldn't come here. And if that's changing, it's because countries in Central and Eastern Europe are rapidly developing (having been held back for decades by having socialist economic policies forced on them by the USSR -not something you can blame on the EU). I dunno about Romania but Poland's economy is set to overtake that of the UK and France in the next 10 or 15 years, and will have its sights set on Germany after that. Tons of Polish immigrants in the UK have already returned for precisely this reason (along with the UK's long-term decline).

I dunno where you're getting "no social securities" from - that's nonsense as far as I can tell:

Germany

Germany MISSOC

ec.europa.eu

So if freedom of movement within the EU, whereby people can move to another country to improve their economic prospects, is "fascist", then what's the solution? Hard borders to ensure zero immigration? But isn't that what the actual fascists want too?

And as far as immigration into Europe from outside goes, it's obviously awful with the boats full of people in the Med, but as far as I understand, what to do (or not do) about those boats is up to the individual countries concerned, not the EU. Once refugees are here, they're protected under the Geneva Convention:

Article 18 - Right to asylum

fra.europa.eu

But more broadly, the people who are the loudest critics of the EU are the same people who'd be perfectly happy sending out gunboats to mow down refugees before they even land.

 

[Mr. Tea]

But, as Wes Streeting has pointed out, nicking them from poorer countries so that they then have the shortage is immoral. It's time we grew our own.

Be that as it may, it's cold comfort for someone in this country getting worse care than they used to get, not better, because there are now fewer medical and care staff post-Brexit, rather than more (as was promised by Johnson et al).

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Be that as it may, it's cold comfort for someone in this country getting worse care than they used to get, not better, because there are now fewer medical and care staff post-Brexit, rather than more (as was promised by Johnson et al).

If you switch from a policy of nicking other countries' talent to training up one's own, there will be a period of readjustment during which countless waves of people will die but how else are we going to do this?, says Keir, as he knocks back the 5th Bacardi Breezer while looking the nation square in the eye.

 

[Murphy]

You’d love control of the death levers

 

[mixed_biscuits]

You’d love control of the death levers

I knew the NHS had these somewhere.

 

[Murphy]

Biden ska dance

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Ah the penny drops. The death levers are the strikes!

 

[Mr. Tea]

If you switch from a policy of nicking other countries' talent to training up one's own, there will be a period of readjustment during which countless waves of people will die but how else are we going to do this?, says Keir, as he knocks back the 5th Bacardi Breezer while looking the nation square in the eye.

The UK is very far from the top of the tree when it comes to recruiting other countries' doctors, though. My sister-in-law is a GP and she moved to Canada last year, where she earns about three times what she was earning here.

Moreover, it seems hard to picture how you could stop this happening, short of someone ensuring all countries have the same levels of pay for health workers, which seems pretty implausible since that would mean wages either far too low to live on in wealthier countries or far outside the budgets of poorer countries, or by countries that are net exporters of health workers going full DPRK and simply banning people from leaving, which I assume you are not in favour of.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

The UK is very far from the top of the tree when it comes to recruiting other countries' doctors, though. My sister-in-law is a GP and she moved to Canada last year, where she earns about three times what she was earning here.

Moreover, it seems hard to picture how you stop this happening, short of someone ensuring all countries have the same levels of pay for health workers, which seems pretty implausible since that would mean wages either far too low to live on in wealthier countries or far outside the budgets of poorer countries, or by countries that are net exporters of health workers going full DPRK and simply banning people from leaving, which I assume you are not in favour of.

Have you heard of regulation?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

We need more healrhcare workers who see it as a vocation rather than a hostage situation.

 

[yyaldrin]

"Lured here to work for a terrible wage"?

If it wasn't better than what they could get back home, they wouldn't come here. And if that's changing, it's because countries in Central and Eastern Europe are rapidly developing (having been held back for decades by having socialist economic policies forced on them by the USSR -not something you can blame on the EU). I dunno about Romania but Poland's economy is set to overtake that of the UK and France in the next 10 or 15 years, and will have its sights set on Germany after that. Tons of Polish immigrants in the UK have already returned for precisely this reason (along with the UK's long-term decline).

plenty of stories about people ending up the streets totally desillusioned. far away from family, left out on their own.

What the Lithuanians, Hungarians and Poles in her clientele share is a dream: success in Europe. They are willing to work hard under difficult circumstances, so that they can, for example, start a restaurant or finance a start-up in the energy transition. Sometimes the dream functions as redemption from a past life involving debt or imprisonment. Migrants almost always count on unrealistically high incomes. The European dream makes it difficult to accept a one-way ticket to disappointed family.

De Bulgaarse Thuisbezorgd-koerier Danail slaapt in een tent

Dakloze arbeidsmigranten uit EU-landen krijgen in Nederland niet dezelfde hulp als Nederlandse daklozen. Nederlandse gemeenten schenden daarmee de rechten van de migranten. In Rotterdam zijn de gevolgen elke dag zichtbaar.

www.groene.nl

Feantsa also looked at poor-quality housing and found that significant numbers of people in the UK, France, Bulgaria and Hungary were living in homes deemed substandard and unfit for living. Across the EU, it called for greater awareness of the numbers of people housed in “dilapidated” properties with damp and mould, overcrowding, inadequate sanitation and fire risks, which were the “daily reality for millions of people”.

Almost 1m people across Europe are homeless on any given night

Report says homelessness is worsening across EU and UK, with only Denmark and Finland making progress

www.theguardian.com

I dunno where you're getting "no social securities" from - that's nonsense as far as I can tell:

Germany

Germany MISSOC

ec.europa.eu

View attachment 19156

this doesn't work in real life, for example it doesn't in the netherlands, nor does it in germany. there are strict rules on how and when you are elligible for receiving benefits. the housing crisis alone prevents most eastern european workers from getting benefits, often they move to western europe with contracts from companies that also provides them housing. in mold ridden little caravans or in bungalows where they have to sleep in groups in tiny spaces without privacy. once they lose their job, which can happen any moment they also lose their accomodation. no address, no benefits.

So if freedom of movement within the EU, whereby people can move to another country to improve their economic prospects, is "fascist", then what's the solution? Hard borders to ensure zero immigration? But isn't that what the actual fascists want too?

it's not fascist to have freedom of movement within the eu but these people should be treated like humans and not like disposable meat.

And as far as immigration into Europe from outside goes, it's obviously awful with the boats full of people in the Med, but as far as I understand, what to do (or not do) about those boats is up to the individual countries concerned, not the EU. Once refugees are here, they're protected under the Geneva Convention:

Article 18 - Right to asylum

fra.europa.eu

asylum seekers in the netherlands have to enter an extremely long and bureaucratic process that takes years and during that time they are not allowed to work or study, preventing them to make any type of progress in life. planning a family, learning a skill, having a career, etc.

But more broadly, the people who are the loudest critics of the EU are the same people who'd be perfectly happy sending out gunboats to mow down refugees before they even land.

yes i agree with this. but let's also not pretend the eu is a socialist heaven for everybody and especially immigrants or people looking for a better life.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

We need more people who prefer to hang with placentas than 1 percenters.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

plenty of stories about people ending up the streets totally desillusioned. far away from family, left out on their own.

What the Lithuanians, Hungarians and Poles in her clientele share is a dream: success in Europe. They are willing to work hard under difficult circumstances, so that they can, for example, start a restaurant or finance a start-up in the energy transition. Sometimes the dream functions as redemption from a past life involving debt or imprisonment. Migrants almost always count on unrealistically high incomes. The European dream makes it difficult to accept a one-way ticket to disappointed family.

De Bulgaarse Thuisbezorgd-koerier Danail slaapt in een tent

Dakloze arbeidsmigranten uit EU-landen krijgen in Nederland niet dezelfde hulp als Nederlandse daklozen. Nederlandse gemeenten schenden daarmee de rechten van de migranten. In Rotterdam zijn de gevolgen elke dag zichtbaar.

www.groene.nl

Feantsa also looked at poor-quality housing and found that significant numbers of people in the UK, France, Bulgaria and Hungary were living in homes deemed substandard and unfit for living. Across the EU, it called for greater awareness of the numbers of people housed in “dilapidated” properties with damp and mould, overcrowding, inadequate sanitation and fire risks, which were the “daily reality for millions of people”.

Almost 1m people across Europe are homeless on any given night

Report says homelessness is worsening across EU and UK, with only Denmark and Finland making progress

www.theguardian.com

this doesn't work in real life, for example it doesn't in the netherlands, nor does it in germany. there are strict rules on how and when you are elligible for receiving benefits. the housing crisis alone prevents most eastern european workers from getting benefits, often they move to western europe with contracts from companies that also provides them housing. in mold ridden little caravans or in bungalows where they have to sleep in groups in tiny spaces without privacy. once they lose their job, which can happen any moment they also lose their accomodation. no address, no benefits.


it's not fascist to have freedom of movement within the eu but these people should be treated like humans and not like disposable meat.


asylum seekers in the netherlands have to enter an extremely long and bureaucratic process that takes years and during that time they are not allowed to work or study, preventing them to make any type of progress in life. planning a family, learning a skill, having a career, etc.


yes i agree with this. but let's also not pretend the eu is a socialist heaven for everybody and especially immigrants or people looking for a better life.

I talked to a Romanian working in a shop in my town. The wage? £2 an hour.

What percentage of immigrants are working similarly? Another legacy of Communism is endemic black market work

 

[Mr. Tea]

Have you heard of regulation?

What the hell is that supposed to mean?