No need to chose. This thread is evidence that you can have both.
Breitbart
- Thread starter Woebot
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No need to chose. This thread is evidence that you can have both.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Propaganda? Thats a bit dramatic. I made a relevant point in the context of the discussion about milo. It was more about liberal double standards than trans anyway.
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
Specific link to comment please. I can't be arsed to look for what you've probably misunderstood anyway.
The term "fish" comes from a particular black lesbian subculture. They can run their own critiques of how problematic it may or may not be.
So you did. But it's not really a question of there being two equivalent sides of an argument which we can "disagree" about. You're just wrong.
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subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
BTW subvert47, I realize this
may have sounded a bit forum-police-y, my apologies if so.
may have sounded a bit forum-police-y, my apologies if so.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Well, you're probably not gonna like this but it really is easier to just link to gallus mag cos its got a collection of quotes from Mock herself, taken from her website and vlogs. Apparently child prostitution can be 'empowering' and a pathway to 'liberation'. Not really too far from what Milo was saying about sex between adults and children.
I understand that, coming out of that world of child prostitution, Mock was abused herself. But calling child prostitution 'sex work' and 'empowering' is not something I imagine most people would agree with. Anyway, whatever your views on this issue are, that's what Mock said.
And if you want to call gallus mag transphobic or a TERF or whatever, thats up to you. I 'politely disagree' with you (in advance). People can read what she's got to say if they want and decide for themselves. Probably best comes with a trigger warning though
https://gendertrender.wordpress.com...r-youth-and-why-he-thinks-thats-a-good-thing/
hmm, fairly sure that 'fish' was a misogynist slur used by some gay males ('tuna' was another one). Wherever it originated, the lesbians I know think its horribly offensive and would never use it. Honestly don't know about black lesbians using it, but it certainly has currency in portions of the transgender community to refer to a M2F who passes as a woman particularly well.
Anyway, Janet Mock is not a lesbian.
Oh come on, is that really going to be your argument?
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
So you are now seriously posting links to gender trender?
ffs
You don't know shit about trans or the trans community – or anything else – apart from the bigoted garbage you suck up online.
And as I said before...
So, no, I don't politely disagree with you. You're just a fucking tool.
ffs
You don't know shit about trans or the trans community – or anything else – apart from the bigoted garbage you suck up online.
And as I said before...
So, no, I don't politely disagree with you. You're just a fucking tool.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Its not really a good look to be calling feminist women bigots when you've just said
and regarding this;
I have close friends directly affected by these issues actually. These things don't exist in a bubble, there are knock-on effects.
and regarding this;
I have close friends directly affected by these issues actually. These things don't exist in a bubble, there are knock-on effects.
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
When the shoe fits... The terms "feminist" and "bigot" aren't mutually exclusive. In the case of gendertrender, et al, "bigot" is the most apposite. They're like some ridiculous "alt-right" hate site. Even Julie Bindel refers to them as "mad fems".
Some of my best friends...? Okay, maybe you do, but you'd have to expand on "directly affected" for that to be meaningful.
Why am I replying again anyway? I mean gendertrender ffs.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Are you not aware that when you shut down a discussion with 'you're just wrong so fuck off' you might be perceived as bigoted or intolerant of other views yourself?
TBH I'm struggling to think of any radical feminists who would agree with transgenderist ideology. Being gender-critical or abolitionist is practically the definition of radical feminism - they don't accept gender identity as innate. So I guess they're all bigots and transphobes then - even a transwoman like Miranda Yardley.
And no, gendertrender is not like an alt-right hate site. I've seen several articles supporting Julie Bindel on there, don't know about the 'mad fems' quote. Anyway, I suppose you could say they're 'angry' mad, but they're not 'insane' mad.
My partner is a feminist activist, so I know women who have been called misogynist slurs online by transactivists, been called terfs, transphobes and bigots simply for disagreeing with the idea that gender identity is innate, women that have been bullied and shouted down in political debates by transactivists (not just online), women who do not want to share a changing room with potentially any male who identifies himself as a woman, a friend who's worried about her brother transitioning etc etc. Forgive me if I don't go into details.
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
I am quite intolerant of certain prejudicial views, yes. And sometimes "fuck off" is the only meaningful response. Especially to people who derive their opinions and get their "facts" from sites like gendertrender.
Probably because transgender is not an ideology to be agreed or disagreed with. There are just transgender people.
Critiquing how gender functions is sensible. Abolishing gender is... a nice idea. Whether "gender identity" (however defined) is innate... is unknown. It's certainly not an axiom of trans ideology. One, because there's no such thing as trans ideology. And two, because many of us in the trans and queer communities have huge problems with "born this way" narratives, either for gender or sexuality. And, speaking personally, I couldn't give a flying fuck why some people are trans, or gay, or bi, or straight, or whatever.
Fine. I can imagine how much support you're being there.
That's me finished by the way. I won't reply again. And to keep from being tempted, I won't look at this thread again either.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Fine, if thats all you've got to say to me or anyone who disagrees with you. Not really sure why you bothered wasting your time
vimothy
yurp
Doug Henwood interviews Angela Nagle on the subject of the alt-right: http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html#S170223
Corpsey
bandz ahoy
https://psmag.com/on-the-milo-bus-with-the-lost-boys-of-americas-new-right-629a77e87986#.v02k4y6qj
'However they may bluster online, the new right and the alt-right hate being called Nazis. They’ve all seen too many movies for it not to matter somewhere deep down where they tell themselves the story of their own heroism. In fact, ever since Inauguration Day, the alt-right has been in meltdown, splitting and splintering in cascading identity crises as only a formerly underground movement can when it attains power. Of course, it’s not my job as a reporter to give activists advice, but if it were, I’d say: No, they’re not all fascists, and not everyone reacts to being called one by changing their tune. But the strategic application of Nazi-shaming works. The real pity is that conservative hypocrisy seems to work faster.
It turns out that some words do hurt. You may have noticed that, in this piece, I have not explicitly described Yiannopoulos or the movement that has made him famous as white supremacist, Neo-Nazi, fascist, or racist. The main reason for that is that it has been made explicitly clear to me that, were I to write such a thing, a libel suit the size of Mar-A-Lago would drop on me, and Yiannopoulos would use every trick in his surprisingly defensive playbook to prize out an apology, because that’s what friends are for. He’s done it to other reporters. He’s not the only one. In fact, a defining feature of the new-right populists is their ability to build a reputation as rhino-hided truth-sayers while flailing their hands in panic if anyone uses whatever words happen to hit them where it hurts. So, for legal reasons, I must state that Milo Yiannopolous, possibly alone of all the smug white people in the world, is not a racist. For moral reasons, however, I must state that Yiannopoulos’ personal beliefs are irrelevant given that he’s built a career off peddling bigotry in public. What about sexism? “Sexism I don’t have the energy to wrestle with you over,” says Yiannopoulos, who, I can personally confirm, is the maple-cured bacon of misogynist piggery — oily and sweet and crass and, on a gut level, dreadful for your health.
It seems perfunctory to point out the hypocrisy of building a movement and a career on the back of insulting people — Muslims, migrants, women, people of color — while nursing a hair-trigger sensitivity to any personal attack you haven’t pre-approved. That hypocrisy, though, does not appear self-evident to anyone within this movement, because a fundamental tenet of far-right pro-trolling is that it’s only other people’s feelings that are frivolous. Their own feelings, by contrast, including the capacity to feel shame when they’re held accountable for their actions, are so momentous that infringing them is tantamount to censure, practically fascism in and of itself. These are men, in short, who have founded an entire movement on the basis of refusing to handle their emotions like adults.'
'However they may bluster online, the new right and the alt-right hate being called Nazis. They’ve all seen too many movies for it not to matter somewhere deep down where they tell themselves the story of their own heroism. In fact, ever since Inauguration Day, the alt-right has been in meltdown, splitting and splintering in cascading identity crises as only a formerly underground movement can when it attains power. Of course, it’s not my job as a reporter to give activists advice, but if it were, I’d say: No, they’re not all fascists, and not everyone reacts to being called one by changing their tune. But the strategic application of Nazi-shaming works. The real pity is that conservative hypocrisy seems to work faster.
It turns out that some words do hurt. You may have noticed that, in this piece, I have not explicitly described Yiannopoulos or the movement that has made him famous as white supremacist, Neo-Nazi, fascist, or racist. The main reason for that is that it has been made explicitly clear to me that, were I to write such a thing, a libel suit the size of Mar-A-Lago would drop on me, and Yiannopoulos would use every trick in his surprisingly defensive playbook to prize out an apology, because that’s what friends are for. He’s done it to other reporters. He’s not the only one. In fact, a defining feature of the new-right populists is their ability to build a reputation as rhino-hided truth-sayers while flailing their hands in panic if anyone uses whatever words happen to hit them where it hurts. So, for legal reasons, I must state that Milo Yiannopolous, possibly alone of all the smug white people in the world, is not a racist. For moral reasons, however, I must state that Yiannopoulos’ personal beliefs are irrelevant given that he’s built a career off peddling bigotry in public. What about sexism? “Sexism I don’t have the energy to wrestle with you over,” says Yiannopoulos, who, I can personally confirm, is the maple-cured bacon of misogynist piggery — oily and sweet and crass and, on a gut level, dreadful for your health.
It seems perfunctory to point out the hypocrisy of building a movement and a career on the back of insulting people — Muslims, migrants, women, people of color — while nursing a hair-trigger sensitivity to any personal attack you haven’t pre-approved. That hypocrisy, though, does not appear self-evident to anyone within this movement, because a fundamental tenet of far-right pro-trolling is that it’s only other people’s feelings that are frivolous. Their own feelings, by contrast, including the capacity to feel shame when they’re held accountable for their actions, are so momentous that infringing them is tantamount to censure, practically fascism in and of itself. These are men, in short, who have founded an entire movement on the basis of refusing to handle their emotions like adults.'