Cancellations

[padraig (u.s.)]

Black Lives Matter

BLM ≠ cancellation. don't conflate the two.

BLM is - unlike cancellation - a unique response to the context of Black Americans, so I would agree it doesn't make sense to carbon copy to other places

if you want a serious and excellent look at the relationship of Europe and Black America, look at the Gary Younge piece I posted in the culture war thread

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

which makes sense, because it comes from a very emotional place

absolutely, which is what makes it so vulnerable to manipulation

just as dog whistle politics, Fox News, right-wing disinformation play on the fears and anger of their audiences

cancellation is validating - it makes people who felt powerless, feel empowered

"contextualize and educate" is a much better approach, but it requires much more work, and goodwill on the part of those with privilege, not always forthcoming

better still would be addressing the underlying issues - racism, sexism, economic inequality. unfortunately that is very difficult.

 

[entertainment]

better still would be addressing the underlying issues - racism, sexism, economic inequality. unfortunately that is very difficult.

But would you agree that there's a point where the salience of cancelling individuals distracts from underlying issues, exchanging lasting fervor for momentary catharsis?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

absolutely

 

[catalog]

but you have a completely unreasonable standard - that for any cancellation to be valid, all cancellation must always be completely above suspicion.

i've not said that at all, you are putting words in my mouth - i literally said that there is genuine reason involved in the mix.

the idea that all cancellation is "temporary and contingent" implies ipso facto that none of it is driven by valid feelings in response to a valid problem

no it doesn't, not to me. 'valid feelings in response to a valid problem' - yes, i get that. but i'm saying that these reasons can change over time and are driven by the current moral climate. they are not immutable facts.

 

[chava]

better still would be addressing the underlying issues - racism, sexism, economic inequality. unfortunately that is very difficult.

even better would adressing WHY these issues exists; like what are the real underlying issues for bigotry and xenophobia other than economic equality which seems to be a bit too simple explanation.

 

[catalog]

this is sort of holy grail stuff now isn't it. 'why are human being so wrong all the time'? pereniall, unsolvable question to me. but we do need to have a go

 

[catalog]

and padraig, just to say, i think possibly we are talking at cross purposes to an extent, im thinking more about virtue signalling and how damaging it is. i do get your point, that cancellation is an option for those who are powerless.

 

[chava]

this is sort of holy grail stuff now isn't it. 'why are human being so wrong all the time'? pereniall, unsolvable question to me. but we do need to have a go

Racism could be conceptualized as a subset of disgust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite-stress_theory
This theory is so wild that I tend to believe it. Conclusion and solution: Global vaccination programme.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

they are not immutable facts

there are no immutable moral facts. it would make life much easier if there were. we all have to use our critical faculties to determine what's right.

changes in moral climate don't just happen. they're in some large part brought about by people agitating for change.

the decision is - is the risk of undeserving people suffering in pursuit of positive social change worth it?

which is really a philosophical question, so without a "correct" answer

we don't know what the moral climate will be in 100 years. we can only deal with what we have before us now.

 

[catalog]

yeah, i agree with that. and also with the broader point, that people need to fight for change, i also agree with that. what i dont like is all the virtue signalling and censorious attitude along the way, from people who are not oppressed. rather than chatting on twitter about it, or making statements, they should act

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

what i dont like is all the virtue signalling and censorious attitude

sure

but, there's no way they're remotely as damaging as racism, sexism, etc, even in the form of microaggressions

I'm also very wary of the broad application of "virtue signalling"

it is what "political correctness" used to be, a way of saying people's feelings are invalid and/or they're creating a problem that doesn't exist

 

[Mr. Tea]

UKTV has pulled a load of old comedy shows, including the "don't mention the war" episode of Fawlty Towers. I have to say, I struggle to see what this is meant to achieve. It's a totally different case from Bo Selecta since the characters who speak the offending lines are themselves the objects of ridicule. I'm reminded of the schools in America that stopped teaching To Kill A Mockingbird on the grounds that it contains racist language, i.e. language spoken by racist characters.

I saw a persuasive argument on Twitter - from a dark-skinned man, before anyone asks - that stuff like this is perfect ammunition for reactionaries who want to cast the BLM movement as just the latest iteration of "political correctness".

Edit: never mind, this thread is moving far too fast for me.

 

[entertainment]

even better would adressing WHY these issues exists; like what are the real underlying issues for bigotry and xenophobia other than economic equality which seems to be a bit too simple explanation.

That's a tough one. Say you begin with sorta unconscious prejudice. You can't eliminate that - it's a function of the human mind to categorize based on group identity. But once the prefrontal cortex comes online, you can confront this prejudice with reason.

The critical issue that we can affect is how you encourage this cognitive process and in which direction you steer it. In ideological racism, it's obviously not just instinctive faculties at work, there's a conscious hierarchical judgement of races.

 

[droid]

AFAIK, the fawlty towers episode was pulled due to repeated use of N*****. The BBC had edited the episode years ago but the old version was still being shown in a few places. Its now being replaced.

 

[catalog]

but, there's no way they're remotely as damaging as racism, sexism, etc, even in the form of microaggressions

i disagree. to me, all the virtue signalling is as damaging as racism, in fact it is racism, it's just covert.

 

[entertainment]

I guess I'm more in the 'empathetic education' than 'critical studies' camp. Although I get people's contention that this is what we've been doing since the 60's and it hasn't eradicated racism.

 

[entertainment]

I sense that there's a big switch going on towards talking about racism as 'structural'. Probably a good turn.

 

[entertainment]

I mean, it's not a new concept, but it's never dominated the popular debate as much as now.

 

[entertainment]

i disagree. to me, all the virtue signalling is as damaging as racism, in fact it is racism, it's just covert.

I think this calls for an elaboration.