George Floyd

[IdleRich]

True NYC hipsters would meet up in tofuspace or something, surely?

Tofu up in tofu space

 

[Leo]

True NYC hipsters would meet up in tofuspace or something, surely?

Dunno Tea, think that's an outdated cliche. for a few years now, it's been all about tattooed hipster butchers and nose-to-tail restaurants.

 

[Leo]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, it's interesting how forcefully the Memphis police department condemned the behavior of the unit, how quickly the officers were fired and charged, and the unit disbanded. Some have called it the model for how a department should react to such a crime.

Also as mentioned, this incident is unusual in that the officers were Black. There's plenty of obvious police brutality here to protest, but the racial element becomes more neutralized.

 

[Mr. Tea]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, it's interesting how forcefully the Memphis police department condemned the behavior of the unit, how quickly the officers were fired and charged, and the unit disbanded. Some have called it the model for how a department should react to such a crime.

Also as mentioned, this incident is unusual in that the officers were Black. There's plenty of obvious police brutality here to protest, but the racial element becomes more neutralized.

At the risk of sounding cynical, is it possible these how factors are linked? E.g., do you think these remedial actions might have encountered much greater pushback from police unions if the guys involved had been white?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Dunno Tea, think that's an outdated cliche. for a few years now, it's been all about tattooed hipster butchers and nose-to-tail restaurants.

The phrase "nose to tail", in the context of food, will never fail to be redolent of The Human Centipede.

 

[Leo]

At the risk of sounding cynical, is it possible these how factors are linked? E.g., do you think these remedial actions might have encountered much greater pushback from police unions if the guys involved had been white?

That too is a point that's been made.

 

[version]

Did the George Floyd stuff result in any changes? Chauvin went to prison and a lot of people got out in the streets, but I haven't heard anything about systemic changes within policing.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

There are new task forces spun up every day in this country. Tens of thousands have existed in this country. Probably hundreds of thousands. The sample selection bias as to which groups go viral is obvious; why would we have heard about a competent group of cops? The variance point is so sociologically obvious as to almost go without saying, let alone defending; it's a big part of the localism vs federalism conflict. If you're gonna stick your head in the sand and pretend you don't understand what I'm saying, be my guest.

Let's review. You, a person who notoriously attacks the idea of systemic racism in policing at every turn, offered an "intuition", based on zero evidence, that suggests problems with special police units are not systemic but the fault of "bad eggs". When challenged to provide literally any evidence, you instead expanded the goal posts to include all task forces of any kind anywhere and invoked a self-evidence fallacy ("so obvious it almost goes without saying").

Very clearly version and I are both talking about nominally elite anti-gang/violence/gun etc police units that have a mandate to go out and semi-autonomously pursue results without the normal level of oversight applied to police officers. Not all task forces of any kind. Obviously you know this, so presumably you're just unable to come up with a real answer, which again I invite you, or anyone, to do: find some examples of successful special police units of this type, i.e. where they've decreased violent crime while also managing not to get disbanded for corruption and brutality.

 

[Leo]

Did the George Floyd stuff result in any changes? Chauvin went to prison and a lot of people got out in the streets, but I haven't heard anything about systemic changes within policing.

don't know

 

[version]

 

[version]

This is an intriguing (and unsettling) thought.

 

[version]

@padraig (u.s.)

Is this true?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Gus being a supreme bootlicker aside, what's really interesting about these special units is how they tie into two prominent law enforcement trends: militarization and systemic racial bias, both of which are about viewing the populace as an enemy rather than the people you serve.

Let's be clear about systemic racial bias too - it is not about the race of individual officers in a given incident. Obviously the optics would be hugely worse if the officers who beat Tyre Nichols to death were white, but either way the underlying issue is policing policies that disproportionately target black and brown people at a policy level. I didn't even mention above the gang intelligence units that most large American police departments have, which double databases of almost exclusively black and brown teenagers. Or the anti-gang ordinances that criminalize parts of daily life. Or policies like pretextual stop and search, which virtually every study shows 1) hugely disproportionately effect POC 2) are almost completely ineffective at lowering violent crime - which is many cities have gotten rid of them.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

@padraig (u.s.)

Is this true?

Yes, specifically talking just about the Loop - i.e. where all the skyscrapers, financial district, most major corporate offices, etc are. Lightfoot raised all but one of the bridges and basically cut it off during the height of George Floyd.

It's bordered on two sides by the river and one by the lake, the only land border is south.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, it's interesting how forcefully the Memphis police department condemned the behavior of the unit, how quickly the officers were fired and charged, and the unit disbanded. Some have called it the model for how a department should react to such a crime.

It's almost as if they shouldn't have had such a unit at all in the first place

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'd be interested in more detailed research, but certainly in broad strokes it's interesting to see that the trend of wars abroad feeding into police militarization at home, which we think of as beginning with Iraq + Afghanistan, goes back much further.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Let me be clear about one more thing tho

Violent crime and gangs obviously exist. Defunding - and even abolition - are not arguing that they don't. What they are arguing is that militarizing the police and treating crime as a war is 1) ineffective 2) costly, both in absolute terms and in the opportunity cost of $ that could be better spent on solutions to social problems that cause crime in the first place. Less cops, less fancy gear for cops, less elite units, less overtime, more social workers, mental health and substance abuse counselors, programs to help homeless people find steady housing, investment to provide opportunities in underserved communities.

Most people here probably understand this distinction, but just in case.

 

[sus]

Let's review. You, a person who notoriously attacks the idea of systemic racism in policing at every turn, offered an "intuition", based on zero evidence, that suggests problems with special police units are not systemic but the fault of "bad eggs". When challenged to provide literally any evidence, you instead expanded the goal posts to include all task forces of any kind anywhere and invoked a self-evidence fallacy ("so obvious it almost goes without saying").

Very clearly version and I are both talking about nominally elite anti-gang/violence/gun etc police units that have a mandate to go out and semi-autonomously pursue results without the normal level of oversight applied to police officers. Not all task forces of any kind. Obviously you know this, so presumably you're just unable to come up with a real answer, which again I invite you, or anyone, to do: find some examples of successful special police units of this type, i.e. where they've decreased violent crime while also managing not to get disbanded for corruption and brutality.

This is your little fantasy world, none of it happened lol

 

[sus]

You're on this crusade and you think I'm some enemy of your crusade when literally I have nothing to do with it, you're just dragging me in as a punching bag foil

 

[version]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, it's interesting how forcefully the Memphis police department condemned the behavior of the unit, how quickly the officers were fired and charged, and the unit disbanded. Some have called it the model for how a department should react to such a crime.

Also as mentioned, this incident is unusual in that the officers were Black. There's plenty of obvious police brutality here to protest, but the racial element becomes more neutralized.

I think things have improved a little in terms of the way the public and the media respond to this sort of thing and that puts more pressure on the police than there used to be.

Obviously the situation's still fucked, but in the 80s you had stuff like Daryl Gates, Chief of the LAPD, publicly claiming the reason so many black guys were dying in police chokeholds was because "... maybe the blood vessels in their neck don't work like 'normal' people's ...". I think a major city police chief saying that to the press would be career suicide these days.

That and you can't argue with the footage.