Examples of other (non hardcore) continuums
- Thread starter Corpsey
- Start date
john eden
male pale and stale
The people around the Kill Your Pet Puppy blog (and others including our own Blissblogger) were pretty good on the continuities between free festivals and squatting scenes.
So you have people like Gong connected to Alternative TV and World Domination Enterprises and thence towards ambient and rave. And there were a bunch of people who came out of the last vestiges of the hippy/psychedelic scene that were then around anarchopunk (Zounds, The Mob etc) and people from that scene went on to the squat rave thing (The Liberators, even Orbital iirc).
A few people made that move from punky goth to EBM/gothy rave in the early 1990s.
Someone like Genesis P-Orridge, for all his faults, was hippy / post punk / industrial / acid house.
23 Skidoo - brit funk / industrial / rave / UK hip hop
So you have people like Gong connected to Alternative TV and World Domination Enterprises and thence towards ambient and rave. And there were a bunch of people who came out of the last vestiges of the hippy/psychedelic scene that were then around anarchopunk (Zounds, The Mob etc) and people from that scene went on to the squat rave thing (The Liberators, even Orbital iirc).
A few people made that move from punky goth to EBM/gothy rave in the early 1990s.
Someone like Genesis P-Orridge, for all his faults, was hippy / post punk / industrial / acid house.
23 Skidoo - brit funk / industrial / rave / UK hip hop
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
To focus a bit, it might help to quote the Don here.
"Continuum" is another way of saying tradition, which I prefer because "tradition" has that folksy/rootsy whiff about it and suggests an orientation towards conserving/preserving. "Continuum", more neutral in aura, suits a music culture that's temporally a two-way street, always simultaneously harking forward and vibrantly haunted by its past."
"Continuum" is another way of saying tradition, which I prefer because "tradition" has that folksy/rootsy whiff about it and suggests an orientation towards conserving/preserving. "Continuum", more neutral in aura, suits a music culture that's temporally a two-way street, always simultaneously harking forward and vibrantly haunted by its past."
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Or maybe that doesnt focus things at all, I dunno. 
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Its arguable all (great) music comes out of a continuum rather than a 'tradition', according to the distinction made above.
other_life
bioconfused
the kill your pet puppy admin uploaded a valentines bootleg from 87 at a show where they opened for psychic tv, if that's anything
other_life
bioconfused
i've decided that there isn't a chillwave continuum or that it's a phantom bc there aren't actually as many substantiating person to person connections as something like that or hardcore
blissblogger
Well-known member
you could call rock a continuum because there are many, many examples of bands who keep changing their sound all the way through
like this guy Jesse Hector who was in a whole series of bands including the Hammersmith Gorillas and the Gorillas and basically went from the rock and roller era through the beat group era into heavy rock into glam into pub / proto-punk and then into New Wave
a fictional example would be Spinal Tap and the way they jump with every change from blues-based beat group sound through psychedelia to heavy rock - they also change their name accordingly with the stages of rock nomenclative fashion - i forgot what they are called early on but semantically it's on the vibe of The Pretty things or The Downliners Sect but then they go with a "heavy" name (and lose the definite article) as Spinal Tap. The flashback bits to earlier incarnations like the ghastly flower-power version of the band are some of the best bits in the movie.
the real-world version of that would be the journey of Status Quo
Another example of "let's be nice and call it aesthetic flexibility" is the journey of Steve Winwood from Spencer Davis Group through Traffic (who had several phases: psychedelia and then a sort of Britfolk inflected prog) to his solo career (first kind of John Martyn soft rock, and then full blown modern R&B crossover in the '80s)
or Grace Slick from the Great Society through Jefferson Airplane into Jefferson Starship (and her solo albums) and then, shudder, Starship.
musicians are surprisingly malleable and go-with-the-times-y (plus they wanna keep having hits and pay the mortgage)
but then again so are critics
like this guy Jesse Hector who was in a whole series of bands including the Hammersmith Gorillas and the Gorillas and basically went from the rock and roller era through the beat group era into heavy rock into glam into pub / proto-punk and then into New Wave
a fictional example would be Spinal Tap and the way they jump with every change from blues-based beat group sound through psychedelia to heavy rock - they also change their name accordingly with the stages of rock nomenclative fashion - i forgot what they are called early on but semantically it's on the vibe of The Pretty things or The Downliners Sect but then they go with a "heavy" name (and lose the definite article) as Spinal Tap. The flashback bits to earlier incarnations like the ghastly flower-power version of the band are some of the best bits in the movie.
the real-world version of that would be the journey of Status Quo
Another example of "let's be nice and call it aesthetic flexibility" is the journey of Steve Winwood from Spencer Davis Group through Traffic (who had several phases: psychedelia and then a sort of Britfolk inflected prog) to his solo career (first kind of John Martyn soft rock, and then full blown modern R&B crossover in the '80s)
or Grace Slick from the Great Society through Jefferson Airplane into Jefferson Starship (and her solo albums) and then, shudder, Starship.
musicians are surprisingly malleable and go-with-the-times-y (plus they wanna keep having hits and pay the mortgage)
but then again so are critics
most UK techno vets either come out of the post-punk or soul/electro hip hop continuum.
Which is ironic given that that soul/electro continuum itself is also the primary continuum for hardcore-jungle, a spin off from the shirts and shoes massif, only to be reunited in UK garridge.
Which is ironic given that that soul/electro continuum itself is also the primary continuum for hardcore-jungle, a spin off from the shirts and shoes massif, only to be reunited in UK garridge.
william_kent
Well-known member
If we can count rock, then I'm going to petition for the JA continuum - Coxsone Dodd, Duke Reid - shuffle r'n'b goes wrong when recreated by Jamaican jazz guys so we end up with Ska - too fast for the summer heat, slow it down - we get Rocksteady - the apprentices ( Lee Perry, Prince Buster, etc ) go off on their own and we get Reggae and a bunch of new producers - which goes through phases - funky, roots, "flying cymbals", rockers, militant double time, slows down and King Tubbys apprentices get their day - Jammy, Scientist, Roots Radics heavy "proto" dancehall, a change of government and slackness is OK, slang teng / tempo casio "computerised" riddims, late 80s digital Stagger Lee style soundbwoy burial, then 90s - nyahbingi out, pocomania in, gun tune, dancehall... the producers are riding the changes, Coxsone moving from ska to rocksteady to reggae, Jammy coming out of roots and then ruling the dancehall
JA goes from this:
Don Drummond - Confucius
to this:
Skillibeng - Coke
all a continuum, looking to the future but very aware of the past - the continual reuse of foundation rhythms from Studio One and Treasure Isle even today
JA goes from this:
Don Drummond - Confucius
to this:
Skillibeng - Coke
all a continuum, looking to the future but very aware of the past - the continual reuse of foundation rhythms from Studio One and Treasure Isle even today
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Very, very knotty, but if you take black gospel music as a starting point you could trace a ton of continuums into blues, jazz, country/hillbilly (thinking Elvis here),,, rnb, soul, funk, disco, house etc.
Take James Brown - started as a gospel singer, went into rnb, soul and then developed funk, the foundations of hip hop.
Take James Brown - started as a gospel singer, went into rnb, soul and then developed funk, the foundations of hip hop.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
@william_kent glad you posted Skillibeng there. A lot of people, purists essentially, throw their hands up at US trap-influenced dancehall, say it's lost its Jamaican identity, but in interviews Skillibeng says he was raised on Bob Marley and tries to channel that spirit. If you squint your ears you can hear it - it may be faint, but it's definitely there. And you could probably say the same for any of the new wave of JA artists.
william_kent
Well-known member
it sounds Jamaican to me! It's dancehall but, yeah, there's some trap influence, but JA has always been influenced by the US, in the 50s Coxsone Dodd was going to Miami to get tunes for his sound, ska was the result of trying to copy US R'n'B, Bob Marley copied Curtis Mayfield, it's always been a part of Jamaican identity to borrow from the US...
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Exactly!
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Rereading Rob Young's Electric Eden at the minute, and he's very insightful on the issue of continuums, tradition and authenticity - talking about UK folk, but you could apply it much more widely.I liked this quote:
"Paradise is a kind of false memory syndrome, a clinging refusal to let go of an illusory golden age. Elements are periodically amputated along the way in order to prevent aspects of the culture from becoming gangrenous, but when things are killed off, the voices of those ghost memories tend to linger."
The new music is haunted by the past. The 'amputations' and taking on of new influences are just as important as tradition for maintaining a vibrant and relevant continuum. As @blissblogger says, its the combo of roots and future that's key.
"Paradise is a kind of false memory syndrome, a clinging refusal to let go of an illusory golden age. Elements are periodically amputated along the way in order to prevent aspects of the culture from becoming gangrenous, but when things are killed off, the voices of those ghost memories tend to linger."
The new music is haunted by the past. The 'amputations' and taking on of new influences are just as important as tradition for maintaining a vibrant and relevant continuum. As @blissblogger says, its the combo of roots and future that's key.
blissblogger
Well-known member
i can't remember the group (the Barkays?) but i did a thing on one of my blogs about how R&B groups changed with the times - the sounds, the equipment used, the stage clothes they wore - it was a sort of good but second-division outfit and you could trace across videos about 20 years of going-with-the-current (in both senses), from sounding sort of in the vicinity of Sly Stone to more post-Pfunk late 70s and then taking on drum machines and synth bass and then right up to swingbeat-era early '90s.
as with the JA examples offered by William Kent, it's almost like the way black music genres work, inherently - a kind of positive unoriginality / positive mercenary syndrome - got to keep those bums on seats (or feet moving on floors)
Isley Bros from the Sixties Motown through the rockfunk 3+3 era through to "Inbetween the Sheets" slick 80s R&B is another standard sort of trajectory
as with the JA examples offered by William Kent, it's almost like the way black music genres work, inherently - a kind of positive unoriginality / positive mercenary syndrome - got to keep those bums on seats (or feet moving on floors)
Isley Bros from the Sixties Motown through the rockfunk 3+3 era through to "Inbetween the Sheets" slick 80s R&B is another standard sort of trajectory
To be fair Bob Marley was the most cosmopolitan of traditional Jamaican artists. That's not a diss, just an observation. It would be strange not to be raised on Bob. Even someone like Barty who is into a lot of this new dancehall would admit that there are significant stylistic differences between even early 00s dancehall and the contemporary stuff, in that Jamaica's sound dovetails more with global pop. A lot of this, granted, is to do with the technology and the laptop production techniques, rather than just being a trap influence. So I don't think the purists can be dismissed that easily, even if I do agree that they are fighting a losing and ultimately nationalistic battle.
Although I think for the purposes of this argument someone like Alkaline is more illustrative.
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other_life
bioconfused
hype williams as a collective, however, -does- exist on a continuum (of a different sort)