sus

Moderator
just left yesterday. never been to turin. i was thinking about staying another day and banging down on the train but had to get back here for work
Turin's good I think, perhaps my favorite Italian city so far. Perhaps beautiful than Rome, almost zero tourists (least this time of year; haven't visited other times). Beautiful river, surrounding hills. So much interesting architecture. Lots of green, lots of parks, everyone's easygoing and friendly, good university presence, good museums.
 

sus

Moderator
in a town called....i can't remember....they had these street decorations which were exactly what they have in the little italy tourist hell. not a surprise. but these continuities between america and the old world live on - i guess the right metaphor is echoes. the world takes on a different sense of time when you see things like that. there's a way of looking at Nyc as having a chunk of southern italian dna. in the aggression i think. and the driving
Pretty sure half of Italian food was invented in Brooklyn or New Jersey, anyway.
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
the tourist centers in europe have really changed. it's one of the places you can feel europe's weakening from the richest bit of the world to....well still a bit which is a bit rich, but not head and shoulders above the rest of the planet. central milan underneath that glass walkway thing and the big ugly cathedral was people with more money from all over the world. and these girls made up in their clothes doing videos. you get the sense that these bits of town have been ceded to someone else. it genuinely didn't used to be like that even in the tourist centres. there's just loads more people with the money to travel now and it's not europeans on the whole
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
similar-seeming European historic centers.
was thinking about the baggage of these places. are these buildings really that beautiful? they're starting to look like toys, the big centrepieces at least. my taste is getting twisted by big brutal america. but then it was already twisted by the UK imagination where we equate summer holiday trips and this very deep received wisdom of what a beautiful building is. they feel like someone else's idea of beauty. oxford always feels like that in particular coz they're buildings made for the richest 18 year olds. they have a childish thing about them if you can wipe away that preexisting notion that old=beautiful
 
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shakahislop

Well-known member
people keep saying that all the good stuff in europe only exists coz of some invisible moral failing. in america it's the idea that it's only coz the americans cover our defence bill. on the nu-left it's coz of colonial exploitation. it's hard to get your head around all these strands and work out what's going on. how do you put all these international threads into your understanding. how do you look at it with all the lenses at once.
 

sus

Moderator
I agree that in continental Europe you can get far better basics—bread, cheese, alcohol—than you can in most of the States. For some reason America's never figured out how to make decent bread at scale. You can certainly eat incredible pastries, cheeses etc if you're willing to pay for it, but in the States, it's priced as a luxury good, imported or else from some family-run upstate farm that gives pedicures to the pigs. Here it's just a cheap staple.
 

sus

Moderator
I do think that in the US food has gotten much better the last 1-2 decades. I genuinely think Trader Joes is one of the best markets in the world. You can get very delicious, and often rather unique, premade/easy-prep meals, with often quite interesting or unconventional ingredients, for very cheap prices, with seasonal rotations and such. I don't think I've been to a grocery story in Europe that matches up to Trader Joes.
 

sus

Moderator
I think US produce is slightly better than continental Europe, probably because of California and Mexico.

Overall diversity and quantity of market goods somewhat higher in US.

Restaurants I don't know, I don't go out in the States, can't afford it.
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
I do think that in the US food has gotten much better the last 1-2 decades. I genuinely think Trader Joes is one of the best markets in the world. You can get very delicious, and often rather unique, premade/easy-prep meals, with often quite interesting or unconventional ingredients, for very cheap prices, with seasonal rotations and such. I don't think I've been to a grocery story in Europe that matches up to Trader Joes.
this is a bit like when mixed biscuits spends all night with a whiteboard and nescafe working out the perfect thing to say to wind up mr tea
 

sus

Moderator
What British grocery do you possibly choose in a matchup with Trader Joes. This is absurd.
 

sus

Moderator
If I could only pick ten institutions from the 21st century to preserve—in current form; in memory; in text or ice—TJs would be one of them.
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
one thing i noticed about sicily was that compared to last time i was there five years ago the african migrants had mostly gone. they were all over the place last time. time moves on and the issues of the day recede, and then no-one talks about them.
 

version

Well-known member
I thought one of the main reasons for American food being bad was because they put a load of shit in it that's illegal in the EU. They've a flipped safety procedure where you have to prove something's dangerous whereas in Europe you have to prove it's safe.
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
trying to work out how to say something about american food without it sounding like the reddit repeatadrome. it's not the worst in the world, there's loads of places which are worse, ecuador for example or uganda, places where the food is very basic. american food is distinctive and unique. the factory is everywhere, mass production, there's a very high tolerance for that. a preference for thin textures, slime, multiple things mixed together. a preference for salt and oil. not much interest in innate flavours and a preference for quantity. desserts are only sugar, there's no room for any other kind of taste, people want that to be very sweet.

a real and insane preference for innovation and novelty, not much respect for tradition. i've been tracking innovation in croissants for a few years now and america is relentless in its stretching of the meaning of the word. people talk about diversity of food in the US and it is true but almost all of it has been adapted to american tastes. you go to a lebanese place and it has the form of lebanese food but that's about it. the tastes are very different. i've never been to an afghan place that tastes like afghan food.

you've also got this thing in america where everyone is huge, either with fat or with muscles, americans are literally massive. the food is at odds with the people

i'm not a big food guy. but i do have to eat. regardless of taste and preference american food makes people feel gross. i'm not sure why. it's a queasy cuisine

cocktails though are an american art

one way that is useful for thinking about america is as a coming together of the world's poorest people. not the case nowadays but some of that perseveres. it's one of the reason america attracts disdain and contempt from middle class europeans and why working class euros like it more over here. it's less offensive to our sense of taste. there's no equivalent to waitrose in nyc. there's no equivalent to carrefour either. supermarket food everywhere is a race to the bottom - how can you make the factories and supply chains function in the cheapest possible way before your customers turn away. the difference in the us is that the point at which customers turn away is much lower than anywhere else. that american credulity. low standards. and that wild free lack of regulation

caffeine is totemic. the italian espresso in a bar, very cheap, very traditional, perfected and widespread. rules about the time of day it's appropriate to drink a cappucino. the american regular coffee is potent, cheap, watery, a wave of acid. working class functionality made in batches. or in places where rich people are clustered you can get a barista drink and pay $6 for something nice.
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
such a young country. the rules are still being worked out. i was in milan, fashion capital, and the fashion is fixed within parameters. you can do something within them. even the hipsters are within the parameters. in nyc, fashion capital, there's no parameters. there's people dressed in ten different ways on the block. someone is wearing a tank top that says Slut for Butt and it works. someone is dressed like a computer generated insta crisp and clean writer and it works. there's a high tolerance, a credulity, no disdain for people doing new things. somewhere like england by contrast wants to standardise: this is the way of doing things and don't get above your station
 

Murphy

cat malogen
Unreal amounts of fresh produce outside of coastal conurbations, maybe hit outside the main death hubs

As for Turin, the Po Valley is sickeningly polluted while Liguria isn’t. Turin always brings to mind minis, Michael Caine and early onset greyhairs like Ravinelli who ended up in the red and white of Middlesbrough
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
in sicily all the men look like frank zappa. so much wild hair going on. curly and unkempt. i love places where that era of alt continues on. like punk never touched it
 
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