well, it will no longer be 'new' as such. A lot of this is to do with timbral variation rather than new musical content, which has by nature had to confirm to rules of notation, harmony, melody etc etc.
State of the dance nations from Sherburne
- Thread starter Corpsey
- Start date
well, it will no longer be 'new' as such. A lot of this is to do with timbral variation rather than new musical content, which has by nature had to confirm to rules of notation, harmony, melody etc etc.
woops
is not like other people
no, no, no this is all rubbish. the whole point is to innovate. I'm surprised @thirdform, with all the useless crap under that moniker, could swing into this blind alley. en garde!
yes, innovate. like Ligeti, Cecil Taylor, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Tatyos Efendi, Alireza Mashayekhi, and Xenakis.
not like dj counterculture-man-man-man-exit-online-polycule-clave-riddim-penis-enlargement-consultant deconstruction microhouse clickety.
0bleak
A Liniment's Evil Work
You seem to be saying (like someone we know on Discogs that I disagree with) that something can't be innovative if it's also dance music.
The thing is about the Sote is that is also follows very strict rhythmic rules which you can hear which makes it very easy to mix with dance whether the rhythms they are more complex or straight bangin'.
artists that operate in areas that still have their own rules and traditions
No, not at all. In fact the distinction between dance and non-dance is a retrogression, this dualism does not exist in Turkish, Arab and Persian classical traditions. It's only later western classical which can tend to relegate the folk form where this can be obscured. But Bartok, for instance, is constantly referencing peasant dance forms, as was Stravinsky.
Don't disagree at all.
Of course, in terms of Ottoman modal music, for instance (which I am familiar with by way of an example) one has to adhere to güçlü (emphasis) seyir (vision of the mode) and yeden (anticipation of the concluding resolve.) Thus one cannot play a mode like one would be practising scales, you would play the notes but they wouldn't amount to a core melodic development. Ironically, Dick Dale totally understood this when he transcribed Misirlou for electric guitar, so surf rock is a connecting tissue, though funk musicians understood this relation of the particular to the total. There is a dissertation to be written about what if James Brown converted to Islam, but @blissblogger is too concerned with Daft Punk, even though the last good record Thomas Bangalter made was in '97. Girondin decadence, as @woops would say! Anyway, back to my point, This doesn't mean there is no room for innovation, quite the contrary in fact.
However most club music is variations of loops of 4-8-16 bars, always has been, so speaking of innovation in grand artistic terms seems to be a bit off topic.
Which, of course, doesn't mean there aren't innovations within the idiom, acid house was clearly an innovation with reference to disco and electro.
Jungle was clearly an innovation with reference to acid house, techno and earlier breakbeat hardcore.
But it becomes harder to make the case for these innovations being akin to innovations in an artistic cannon. Free jazz, musique concrete, modern classical and innovations in the Eastern traditions can be made, however, just like one can speak of innovations in world literature. It's a question of scale, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I actually agree with @sus that noone will really care about jungle or techno in 100 years time apart from the most dedicated of historians of music. I just think he overstates his case when he thinks Joanna-Gavin Newsome or nonce-Ziggy Stardust is exempt.
In the same way that people today remember the more reflective/cinematic jungle rather than the haphazardly thrown together chopped up creations, even if at the time it was those very barbaric artifacts which pointed the way forward. The problem with the Fisherite perspective, as I have tirelessly reiterated on here is that it tends to be boxed in its own hermetic universe, in a similar way to the likes of Proudhon and Ricardo who only saw use value and exchange value as value, but not as what they were as social relations erected on a certain historical development of the forces and relations of production. Will this galvanise @mvuent to read the Poverty of Philosophy? Maybe Dilbert can IV drip feed it to him...
If the argument however is that one cannot isolate the ivory tower from the county fair, then yes I absolutely agree with that. These innovations in popular forms, although they may seem minor from an art music or art history perspective, feed into these traditions and change them in hitherto unthought of ways! But that's dialectics for you!
Should add (so not to be misconstrued) I'm being polemical and bending the stick in the opposite direction because we seem to have these discussions every three weeks or so and it really does begin to grate. Otherwise the contrast between high art music and popular forms is not so segmented in my eyes and neither would I write off the innovations of lowbrow forms. But it's necessary to purify some refuseniks in the gutter.
Murphy
cat malogen
Caught me mid-post @thirdform
15 seconds of skim reading it appears a petulant piece of bin-able shite about squandered (charming!) legacies within electronic music and nightclubs, without offering much as to moving art and nocturnal economies forward. A conflated, almost ordained, sense of bs just waiting and watching for the next ‘scene’ (minging term) or technical innovation/accidental glitch to develop, to be spoon feed back to the writer i.e lazy cunt to subsequently sell back to an even lazier readership
Rhythm has been furrowed so fully it seems almost ridiculous to expect evolution from a ‘club’ environment where formula is monarch:
Hence, timbral variety ..
Alternatively, the more experimentally coherent self-made productions and works in progress posted by members here keep your ears fresh by getting right into textural sheen, crunch, dexterity, flow, subtlety, lightness, distorted expectations of layering, dare I say vertiginous atmospheric depth, from both textural uniqueness and vocalisation experiments (if the latter is present). And that’s not even articulating the sheer variety of sounds just here, on one forum, so by no means disheartened or disenchanted, guess it’s what you delight in or listen for in sound design
Convergence and divergence are less of an issue because, personally, don’t attend nightclubs to discover anything of artistic or hedonistic value. Not for aeons and discovery isn’t the appropriate context either so it’s a tragic choice of framing from the article. Aye, Covid, the world changed slightly but close them all. We have an ongoing homelessness population who have real needs and too many binge-drinkers who lay siege to every urban centre everywhere every single weekend. Two birds ..
Smaller intimate settings who share facilities and who aren’t subject to booze licensing always work as venues, as would a mix of housier favourites if you’re ever in the mood @thirdform , be interested to hear what you’d do with such wonders
15 seconds of skim reading it appears a petulant piece of bin-able shite about squandered (charming!) legacies within electronic music and nightclubs, without offering much as to moving art and nocturnal economies forward. A conflated, almost ordained, sense of bs just waiting and watching for the next ‘scene’ (minging term) or technical innovation/accidental glitch to develop, to be spoon feed back to the writer i.e lazy cunt to subsequently sell back to an even lazier readership
Rhythm has been furrowed so fully it seems almost ridiculous to expect evolution from a ‘club’ environment where formula is monarch:
Hence, timbral variety ..
Alternatively, the more experimentally coherent self-made productions and works in progress posted by members here keep your ears fresh by getting right into textural sheen, crunch, dexterity, flow, subtlety, lightness, distorted expectations of layering, dare I say vertiginous atmospheric depth, from both textural uniqueness and vocalisation experiments (if the latter is present). And that’s not even articulating the sheer variety of sounds just here, on one forum, so by no means disheartened or disenchanted, guess it’s what you delight in or listen for in sound design
Convergence and divergence are less of an issue because, personally, don’t attend nightclubs to discover anything of artistic or hedonistic value. Not for aeons and discovery isn’t the appropriate context either so it’s a tragic choice of framing from the article. Aye, Covid, the world changed slightly but close them all. We have an ongoing homelessness population who have real needs and too many binge-drinkers who lay siege to every urban centre everywhere every single weekend. Two birds ..
Smaller intimate settings who share facilities and who aren’t subject to booze licensing always work as venues, as would a mix of housier favourites if you’re ever in the mood @thirdform , be interested to hear what you’d do with such wonders
0bleak
A Liniment's Evil Work
Speaking of loops there was a time about two years ago, I actually sent the author of that pitchfork piece (and several other outlets and journalists) a link to a mix I did where I mixed a number of tracks in 3/4 time (some with breakbeats, even - but still in 3/4 time) in a mix with a lot of tracks that are in the standard 4/4 time. The interplay between the time signatures was very interesting to my ears because the 4/4 meter loops would be as you say in 4-8-16 bars where as the ones in 3/4 would be in cycles of something like 12 bars so there would be interesting polyrhythms that were created.
I also put in some stuff that was otherwise tangentially rhythmically related even if in 4/4 time (triplets being an example).
Basically filled to the brim with interesting sounds and textures, and a range of styles and rhythms being mixed together.
Of course it was ignored (except for a few kind folks like on here, for example) so I question if the author or people in general really want anything new
Perhaps I should have presented myself as a LGTBQ+ person of color from either an inner city or a developing country...
watch this space, something coming for you in the next month or so.
Speaking of loops there was a time about two years ago, I actually sent the author of that pitchfork piece (and several other outlets and journalists) a link to a mix I did where I mixed a number of tracks in 3/4 time (some with breakbeats, even - but still in 3/4 time) in a mix with a lot of tracks that are in the standard 4/4 time. The interplay between the time signatures was very interesting to my ears because the 4/4 meter loops would be as you say in 4-8-16 bars where as the ones in 3/4 would be in cycles of something like 12 bars so there would be interesting polyrhythms that were created.
I also put in some stuff that was otherwise tangentially rhythmically related even if in 4/4 time (triplets being an example).
Basically filled to the brim with interesting sounds and textures, and a range of styles and rhythms being mixed together.
Of course it was ignored (except for a few kind folks like on here, for example) so I question if the author or people in general really want anything new
Perhaps I should have presented myself as a LGTBQ+ person of color from either an inner city or a developing country...
was that one of the beat them in the middle mixes? I doubt Sherburne would be interested seen as he spent most of the 00s writing about really pedestrian German mnml. Don't think the LGBT/minority angle would cut it for him either, he's just fairly bland in general, as are most techno ravers who write for pitchfork.
I actually like the idea of köln kompakt especially when it was producers such as dettinger serving as an antidote to the hideous loopy swedish records, etc, but it got a lot of bland indie rockers into techno, fortunately only amongst themselves. and as @the ig noted, a lot of that 00s cologne mnml only stood the test of time for about 5 mins. Could probably shift a crate of trapez records for 1 quid. As in, the whole crate for a quid.
90s cologne, of course, was another story. But that's when you had the mad scientist, dictator bear Ingmar Koch at the helm, with his mad moroder nightmare psychodelic dreams putting le corbusier to shame.
0bleak
A Liniment's Evil Work
Square Time in a Black Hole although I have played some of those same producers in other mixes, or people in that circle of artists like Lemna.
There's actually a "scenius" (to quote that article) of producers that are kind of being ignored that are, from time to time, producing tracks in a certain way in 3/4 meter in a way that basically no one else is doing. They kind of revolve around the Samurai Music label or related labels.
Some of it is like dnb in 3/4, but at a techno tempo, where some of the tracks are just more like experimental techno in 3/4.
0bleak
A Liniment's Evil Work
Interesting coincidence - I was messing around with a track from that comp recently, Unit 700 - Bring Back The Noize! where I see trying to see if I add anything additionally interesting to it, particularly in a noisy manner (in keeping with the track title), but then I got frustrated and decided to leave well enough alone.
chava
Well-known member
I dunno if the indie rockers were down with this:
too bad with the trapez/traum label, it was led by one of the best dj/journalists in the scene
I still occasionally listen to the Friends cd he did for some clickety tech house nostalgia. But would rather listen to some detroit house like Theo Parrish or Aybee instead.
The Force Trax stuff has aged well, I think.