American Artlessness
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Benny Bunter
Well-known member
The stopping by the woods one I posted reminds me of wordworths lucy poems quite a lot in that it's what's left out that gives it that hard-to-place mood.
He doesn't tell us anything about the owner of the woods apart from he thinks he know who it is and he lives in the village. We don't really know why the speaker stops there, just he's somehow fascinated by the woods that are 'lovely, dark and deep'. We're told he has promises to keep, but no more than that. The last two lines are word-for-word the same, but each has a subtly different meaning. The easy rhythm and simple words and calm setting give it a peaceful feeling, but its unsettling at the same time. It's all very mysterious and suggestive.
The Marianne Moore quote that came up earlier, "imaginary gardens with real toads in them" and Keats' negative capability apply to this poem too, I think.
He doesn't tell us anything about the owner of the woods apart from he thinks he know who it is and he lives in the village. We don't really know why the speaker stops there, just he's somehow fascinated by the woods that are 'lovely, dark and deep'. We're told he has promises to keep, but no more than that. The last two lines are word-for-word the same, but each has a subtly different meaning. The easy rhythm and simple words and calm setting give it a peaceful feeling, but its unsettling at the same time. It's all very mysterious and suggestive.
The Marianne Moore quote that came up earlier, "imaginary gardens with real toads in them" and Keats' negative capability apply to this poem too, I think.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
One sign of his subtlety is his sonnets - I'd read a few of them several times before I even realised that they were sonnets, the rhyming is so unintrusive.
Writing sonnets was a terribly unfashionable thing to do for a modern poet of the time, and I like that he went his own way, and managed to do new things with such a worn out form. In fact its comparable to when Shakespeare did his sonnets when the Elizabethan craze for them was already way past its peak.
Writing sonnets was a terribly unfashionable thing to do for a modern poet of the time, and I like that he went his own way, and managed to do new things with such a worn out form. In fact its comparable to when Shakespeare did his sonnets when the Elizabethan craze for them was already way past its peak.
mixed_biscuits
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Lol. Neither @Benny Bunter nor @jenks know what "artless" means. Book a trip to the dictionary perhaps?
mixed_biscuits
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It always makes me laugh when some ancient form like the sonnet is claimed to be worn out, as the people saying that were not alive when it was being used. For moderns the modern stuff is worn out.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Why is robert frost artless then?
mixed_biscuits
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Look up the definition; it's not what you think it is
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
I was referring to fashion. You don't have to been alive at the time to be able to look back and see when it was popular before being rinsed out, and then later revived with various adaptations.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
So why do you think Robert frost was artless?
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Words tend to have several definitions with nuanced differences between them. But you know that already. I'd like to know why you think why Frost is artless, I'm genuinely perplexed. For a start, he's pretty much universally recognised as a master of irony, so how is he artless?
mixed_biscuits
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But in what way is it rinsed out for people who've never read then or used them much?
The English language itself is more rinsed out than a particular form.
I think they only say that to make out there's some sort of improvement and "progress" is happening, rather than loss of capability.
mixed_biscuits
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Artless = unaffected. Irony is not an affectation. An example of an affected poet is Mr Toilets. Ashanti, ashanti kumbaya shish kebab.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
What's the point of talking about people who've never read them? Lol!
mixed_biscuits
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Claiming the sonnet is rinsed out is like saying everyone's fed up with wearing doublets.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
You're playing daft word games because you don't know how to read.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
I mean, it's fair enough, reading poems is really hard and I'm not very good at it myself but...
