American Artlessness
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sus
Moderator
The irony discourse in the 90s feels weird to me I remember latching onto it as interesting, when I was an undergrad, but I can't for the life of me remember why. Sincerity as an antonym to knowingness, the pursuit of cool, of status. A different kind of social conformity than the PTA 9-5 middle class protosuburban thing the Beats rejected. Which says in fsct that all the Beat emulators in the cities all the turtlenecked kids are also practicing a form of conformity that looks superficially rebellious
entertainment
Well-known member
I think it's still sort of interesting.
This returning to sincerety as a final criterion seems a misguided idea. In a way, sincerety, as the highest possible concept we can aspire to have a common everyday use understanding of, should be a first criterion. An entry level qualification for artistic integrity.
But then it depends on what level of sincerety we're talking about. There's the sincerity you're talking about when you sense that something is consciously faked, maybe to satsify market trends or whatever. Then there's the idea of sincerety that assumes a relation of truth to an "actual inner feeling," which starts being problematic surely.
entertainment
Well-known member
You can say that if you care about sincerety you end up evaluating art through a crude binary that has no sensibility for the variety and subtlety of form.
But then another understanding of sincerety is a sort of staying true to a singular individualising force that shapes your prose/art/whatever from the inside. Which means it is exactly a register for variety and sublety.
But then another understanding of sincerety is a sort of staying true to a singular individualising force that shapes your prose/art/whatever from the inside. Which means it is exactly a register for variety and sublety.
entertainment
Well-known member
"There is absolutely no reason in the world why a man in America may not write exactly what he feels, in any form that suits him, and if he has what is known as talent, or even genius, there is no reason why it should not be published and be read and understood by many other Americans. It doesn’t have to be a “novel,” or a “memoir,” or a “diary,” or a “travel book,” or an “essay.” It can be just plainly and simply a book. The writing does not have to be “good writing,” that is, artistically labored writing with significant absences of statement of feeling. It can be ordinary writing and full of feeling." ― Jack Kerouac, Self-Portrait: Collected Unpublished Writings
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from my facebook feed
mixed_biscuits
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mixed_biscuits
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Marxist societies help us to distinguish the insincere from the sincere, as the artists in the gulag were probably being sincere.
sus
Moderator
Weird tension between the "ordinary man" and "genius" bit here but sure
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Prynne on going to America in the early part of his writing career:
"Gradually I became less cocksure. It made me have strong objections to the kind of thing I was doing. It didn’t make it any easier. My pencil insisted on writing this stuff that I was not very impressed by, or interested in. It took a while to work my way out of it. I would read Melville, and think, Jesus, this is the way to get free, but look at the cost. It must have completely destroyed the equanimity of Melville’s mind to project it into the strange alien violence of the pressures he put it under, the destinations he coerced it into. It was so different from someone like Stevens, who seemed to be calmly in control and deliberate in the writing practise. I thought, There must be some connection between these two. They are using the same language, they live in the same world. What is this? What’s happening? What am I doing in this place? It was very disturbing."
"Gradually I became less cocksure. It made me have strong objections to the kind of thing I was doing. It didn’t make it any easier. My pencil insisted on writing this stuff that I was not very impressed by, or interested in. It took a while to work my way out of it. I would read Melville, and think, Jesus, this is the way to get free, but look at the cost. It must have completely destroyed the equanimity of Melville’s mind to project it into the strange alien violence of the pressures he put it under, the destinations he coerced it into. It was so different from someone like Stevens, who seemed to be calmly in control and deliberate in the writing practise. I thought, There must be some connection between these two. They are using the same language, they live in the same world. What is this? What’s happening? What am I doing in this place? It was very disturbing."
sus
Moderator
I saw a small flamenco show last night, a friend sometimes plays there and recommended it, and it was nice how intimate it was. Acoustic sound small room. Very similar to a bossa venue I visited in Rio.
I was thinking about how the nearest equivalent in the States is like, a folk show, which hasn't even been a thing since the 60s. It's all big venues big shows loud amplified music. Mass music designed for mass national audience tours.
But the level of craft involved, for the vocalist and instrumentalist alike, are so much higher than the American folk scene which is ultimately very artless.
And The dancer he did this incredible cockstrut bullfight thing where he was at once the bull and the fighter, the proud cock and the gutted gallo
I was thinking about how the nearest equivalent in the States is like, a folk show, which hasn't even been a thing since the 60s. It's all big venues big shows loud amplified music. Mass music designed for mass national audience tours.
But the level of craft involved, for the vocalist and instrumentalist alike, are so much higher than the American folk scene which is ultimately very artless.
And The dancer he did this incredible cockstrut bullfight thing where he was at once the bull and the fighter, the proud cock and the gutted gallo
sure, but how big is Flamenco in Spain compared to other music?
this table is from 2014, but unless flamenco got a lot more popular there in the last 10 years, how big and culturally load bearing is Flamenco there?
I mean, I could go to a venue tonight in a small city in South Carolina and see a couple of folk musicians, or go to the regular folk music events or festivals that roll through the area...
when I asked ai about that list:
"From the list you provided, there are no songs that would be considered pure Flamenco, which is a traditional Spanish music style characterized by specific vocal techniques, guitar playing, rhythmic handclaps (palmas), and sometimes dance.
However, a few artists and songs on this list are connected to Latin music traditions and occasionally incorporate Flamenco influences, though not enough to be categorized strictly as Flamenco. Here's a quick rundown:
If we stretch the definition a bit, the closest songs to having Flamenco elements would be:
But again, these are all Flamenco-pop or Latin pop, not traditional Flamenco in the sense of Camarón de la Isla, Paco de Lucía, or Sara Baras.
If you're looking for true Flamenco, you'd want to look for artists like:
this table is from 2014, but unless flamenco got a lot more popular there in the last 10 years, how big and culturally load bearing is Flamenco there?
I mean, I could go to a venue tonight in a small city in South Carolina and see a couple of folk musicians, or go to the regular folk music events or festivals that roll through the area...
when I asked ai about that list:
"From the list you provided, there are no songs that would be considered pure Flamenco, which is a traditional Spanish music style characterized by specific vocal techniques, guitar playing, rhythmic handclaps (palmas), and sometimes dance.
However, a few artists and songs on this list are connected to Latin music traditions and occasionally incorporate Flamenco influences, though not enough to be categorized strictly as Flamenco. Here's a quick rundown:
❌ Not Flamenco (but sometimes influenced by it):
- Enrique Iglesias – Bailando, Loco, Noche y de día
These songs have Latin and Spanish elements. Bailando in particular features Spanish guitar and Flamenco-style rhythms, but it is considered Latin pop/reggaeton, not Flamenco. - David Bisbal – Diez mil maneras, No Amanece
Bisbal is known for his Flamenco-pop roots (from his time on "Operación Triunfo" in Spain), but this song is pop, not traditional Flamenco. - Pablo Alborán – Por fin
His music is often acoustic and emotional with Spanish guitar, occasionally borrowing from Flamenco phrasing, but still categorized as pop-ballad or Flamenco-pop, not Flamenco puro. - Leiva – Terriblemente Cruel
This is more alternative rock with Spanish flavor, not Flamenco. - Antonio Orozco – Llegará, Temblando
Pop-rock with some emotional vocal stylings but not Flamenco. - Shakira – Boig per tu, La La La
While Shakira has drawn influence from many genres, these songs are pop/world music, not Flamenco. - Malú – Me Fui, Deshazte de Mí
Malú comes from a Flamenco family and has Flamenco-pop influences, but these songs are ballads/pop, not traditional Flamenco.
✅ Closest to Flamenco Influence:
If we stretch the definition a bit, the closest songs to having Flamenco elements would be:
- Enrique Iglesias – Bailando
- David Bisbal – Diez mil maneras
- Pablo Alborán – Por fin
- Malú – Me Fui
- Antonio Orozco – Temblando (possibly)
But again, these are all Flamenco-pop or Latin pop, not traditional Flamenco in the sense of Camarón de la Isla, Paco de Lucía, or Sara Baras.
If you're looking for true Flamenco, you'd want to look for artists like:
- Paco de Lucía
- Tomatito
- Niña Pastori
- Vicente Amigo
- Estrella Morente
- José Mercé"
I guess it also depends on what you see/hear in your mind's eye/ear when you think of trad American folk - of which there are a number of genres and styles.
Some of those players will blow your hair back.
I also consider the kind of gospel music you hear in (primarily black) churches where the whole congregation sings and participates (often in a call-and-response style) to be a kind of American folk music, and those are places where many people go every Sunday.
You also have various Native American musics...
Some of those players will blow your hair back.
I also consider the kind of gospel music you hear in (primarily black) churches where the whole congregation sings and participates (often in a call-and-response style) to be a kind of American folk music, and those are places where many people go every Sunday.
You also have various Native American musics...
sus
Moderator
Absolutely. They're just never the white kids with acoustic guitars
Probably bluegrass festivals are what I need to dig into?
And there's obviously loads of talented jazz musicians
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
For fun I just asked chatGPT to rewrite the post I was going to make in the style of Hemingway. Here's what it came up with
Flamenco is old—older than the country I come from. When you find yourself in one of those dim, intimate rooms, with the guitar echoing off the stone walls, you’re not just watching music. You’re witnessing something that’s burned slow and bright for half a millennium. The players didn’t pick it up for fun. They gave their lives to it—like a sitar master in the East, chasing something pure. Every flick of the hand, every heel strike, is sharp with passion and precision. There’s no pretense. Just fire, carried through generations. And when that fire meets the heavy air of Spain—thick with wine, smoke, and heat—it’s not just music. It’s a kind of spell. And you’re under it before you know.
Flamenco is old—older than the country I come from. When you find yourself in one of those dim, intimate rooms, with the guitar echoing off the stone walls, you’re not just watching music. You’re witnessing something that’s burned slow and bright for half a millennium. The players didn’t pick it up for fun. They gave their lives to it—like a sitar master in the East, chasing something pure. Every flick of the hand, every heel strike, is sharp with passion and precision. There’s no pretense. Just fire, carried through generations. And when that fire meets the heavy air of Spain—thick with wine, smoke, and heat—it’s not just music. It’s a kind of spell. And you’re under it before you know.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
What I fed it: One thing is flamenco is as old if not older than the US as a whole. So when you go to one of those intimate gigs you're watching something that's been kept burning with the fuego for the past 500 years. Those players pretty much dedicated their whole lives to mastering it in the same way and Indian sitar virtuoso would. Unfiltered passion and focus encoded within each furious burst of the hand. The fire in the performances carries that historical weight, which in combination with being in the already intoxicating air of Spain, can be a heady brew.