no, I speak clearly (how else could the Turk be brutal?) but you are English.
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no, I speak clearly (how else could the Turk be brutal?) but you are English.
version
Well-known member
I'm not totally English, I've a bit of French and Scottish in me.
yeah and I've got bits of Arab, Iranian, and probably Armenian ancestry. Still a brutal Turk to the west, still a reprobate and a scoundrel Kurdish southerner to the Turkish state.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well there are two very obvious points to make here.
One is that there were sociologists active in, say, the USSR, and presumably still are in e.g. Cuba or Venezuela.
The other is that there is nothing to stop individual Marxists from working as sociologists (and I'm sure there are tons of sociologists who profess Marxism or a related personal ideology), even in countries that do not have Marxist governments. Whereas in countries that have been officially Marxist (or Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist, etc.), doing any kind of academic work in a framework that is not considered compatible with the state-approved ideology has tended to be difficult, dangerous or simply impossible.
And yet commodity production exists in all of the countries you listed, and even existed in the USSR.
Which again goes back to my point from upthread. If you want to argue that commodity production appears to be the end of human history to us, then this is also a progressive teleology. You could even say that 'we might find a way to abolish it in the future' but that just augments the progressive liberal teleology even more.
version
Well-known member
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Right, but is that synonymous with "capitalism"? It sounds like such a broad term as to be virtually equivalent to any kind of trade whatsoever, which has obviously been going on since the Palaeolithic. A definition that inexact surely has no value at all (and we all know you value exactitude!).
So the idea that Marxism is the "cure" to this, the only "right" and "scientific" and "objective" way to look at society, is just a value judgement that you're making as if it were the statement of a universal truth, like the constancy of the speed of light in a vacuum. @version is obviously right in that any framework will have some sort of bias built in, whether at a personal or societal level, depending on who's constructed it.
This is like when patty was chiding me for being "brainwashed by biased media", and then tried to educate me by sending me links to some other, presumably unbiased, media - since, for him, "biased" meant media saying things he doesn't like, and "unbiased" meant media that says things he already agrees with.
please no. you are enough.
No, bourgeois society is an immense accumulation of commodities. Simple trade is not an immense accumulation of commodities, be that laisez-faire or state directed enterprise.
If I exchange a banana for your apple m-c-m does not come into it. there is no self-expanding value. If I make a table and give it to you gratis, or use it, that is also not a commodity.
version
Well-known member
I find it incredibly difficult to look at all the ideas and theories and ideologies people have come up with more or less since we've existed as a species and have the confidence to feel whichever sounds about right to me is definitely correct and I've sussed it out and landed on the true path millions of others throughout history have missed.
even in the previous societies of imperial tribute, the labourer was not divorced from her means of production, and the surplus product was mostly produced for military consumption. not to sell to make more money and then sell again to make more money, and for money to make more money, etc etc.
you still don't get it. this is war, or at least, combat. It's not about choosing.
version
Well-known member
Against whom, or what?
capitalism and the bourgeoisie. We will only have a fully realised, completed conception of capitalism and the capitalist state when we have won this war, and as time goes by, more people will come over to our side as making war on war will be necessary to the survival of the human species.
People will also become feminised, black, trans, disabled (in essence proletarianised.) Why do you think biscuits is so anti-trans? It's not because he finds transsexuality incoherent, but precisely because masculinity as we know it is undergoing its death agonies (and the term agonies is important here.) You look at incel ideology, bodybuilding, no fap, even the excessive preoccupations with the gymn. The negative always problematises the anxieties of the positive affirmation.
Personally I have no great love for the majority of queer identitarians and find their culture offputting, but my opinions in this register don't matter. What matters is the preconditions that are being laid by capitalism.
biscuits wants revolutionary society without its disintegrating elements. he wants conservatism, but the biggest lie of conservatism is that it exists (in the longrun.) American conservatism is an excellent demonstration of this. noone from 100 years ago would even call it conservative, let alone liberal, if anything, they would see it as subversive.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
What if one person pays another for their banana using cash? Is that "capitalism"? If you're saying it is, then I don't think that's a useful or meaningful definition of capitalism.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yes, and people who have that conviction are invariably the most deluded.