Before you post yet another, ask yourself

[owen]

I'm always interested in more sustained threads. But the shape of the distribution curve of the grime-related thread lengths seems OK to me -- you can just skip over the tiddlers if you want to. And I think there's value in allowing a few different voices in who may not always be comfortable with the cut and thrust of set-piece threads.

yeah, but it clogs it up- the top thread in music is always 'american grime' or 'grime exhibition' or some permutation thereof. It gets boring.

 

[Grievous Angel]

yeah, but it clogs it up- the top thread in music is always 'american grime' or 'grime exhibition' or some permutation thereof. It gets boring.

Well, it's worth talking about. I understand the concern. I just think that Dissensus is unique in bringing expert, insider knowledge of grime to a wider audience, an audience that is mainly fairly well versed in the 'nuum, which creates a potential for exchange that I wouldn't want to lose.

 

[k-punk]

Well, it's worth talking about. I understand the concern. I just think that Dissensus is unique in bringing expert, insider knowledge of grime to a wider audience, an audience that is mainly fairly well versed in the 'nuum, which creates a potential for exchange that I wouldn't want to lose.

and it shouldn't lose it --- isn't that more of a reason why fewer, better quality threads is the way forward, that way the insights get shared and considered, rather than disappearing instantly? I mean, I do think part of the problem with Grime is that it is so insular, but that's another story.

 

[k-punk]

as usual you have some valid points, but more unusually, some of it's very sloppily considered and inches away from polemic.

It IS polemic --- but why is polemic bad? Polemic doesn't mean unreasoned. The dominant forces of the world need to be challenged. Hip hop is totally integrated into global capitalism, preposterously successful ---

I guess I should save this for the hip hop thread but my question would be: why would behaviours and attitudes (everything that Owen lists) that would in every other context be considered grotesque and unacceptable become excused and celebrated in the context of hip hop?

 

[Grievous Angel]

Mark, leave it til the hiphop thread . (Nobody mention threadrot to Mark!!)

Back to the topic at hand: is there any chance of Matt putting together some stats on grime related threads within the Music forum, and their length? Dunno if the software lets you do that but... maybe it could list the threads with mentions of the word "grime", say how many mentions there are in the thread, and how many posts are in the thread...

In the meantime, here are some hand-assembled stats for the first three pages of Music are:

Page 1: 7 of 20 (23, 22, 18, 12, 3, 4, 3 replies)

Page 2: 5 of 20 (53, 26, 12, 7, 0 replies)

Page 3: 4 of 20 (40, 22, 13, 0 replies)

So there are 16 Grime threads out of 60, or 26%. On average there are 5.333 grime related threads per page. This doesn't sound so bad to me, because most people here like Grime.

Meanwhile, on the issue of "grime threads have few posts and don't go anywhere", lets look at how many replies there are to Grime threads:

Average number of replies to Grime threads on Page 1 = 12.14

Average number of replies to Grime threads on Page 2 = 19.6

Average number of replies to Grime threads on Page 3 = 18.75

Overall average number of replies to Grime threads on the first three pages of music = 16.125

So, over the most recent 60 threads on Music, average replies are pretty healthy, I think.

And, in absolute terms, the number of Grime threads with less than 5 replies number only 5, out of 16 -- that's less than a third. That also doesn't sound that bad to me.

So I think there's an empirical basis for arguing, based on recent Dissensus data, that Grime threads are not an over-represented, burdensome component of Dissensus content, and that the posting activity within those Grime threads is reasonably substantial.

 

[k-punk]

Well, 26% of all Music threads being devoted to Grime could be said to be over-representing its significance I would say. (And we'd also need data about length of replies too - how many are more than one line?)

I agree that the problem isn't exclusive to Grime threads, it's that there are too many music threads per se. It seems to me that every time I come back there are virtually a page's worth of new threads. Makes it impossible to keep track. I agree with Owen, we need harsher disciplining of ppl who start threads on topics that have already been discussed.

 

[stelfox]

yes we should birch them, then force them to listen to old industrial music for a week.

 

[john eden]

yes we should birch them, then force them to listen to old industrial music for a week.

Or worse, new industrial music.

 

[k-punk]

Might widen their cultural receptivity, yep.

 

[stelfox]

repeat offenders will be locked in a room, into which will be piped the entire catalogues of the def jux label, common (with the exception of that one good track off like water for chocolate), ursula rucker and erykah badu.

 

[hamarplazt]

About the statistics: If I'm not mistaken, the threads of the first pages are not just the most recent ones, but also the most active ones, so the majority of short lived threads (grime or otherwise) would probably be on the last pages.

It seems to me that a lot of the grime threads are about recent shows (live or pirate radio), and that the board is often used less as a discussion forum, and more as way to find people to go to shows with (not just grime shows, obviously). Maybe we could simply make a subforum for this kind of thing, so they don't clog up the music pages?

 

[Grievous Angel]

I like erykah badu.

Anyway, what level of Grime threads do people think is acceptable? Is 26% "too much"?

I don't think it is, given Grime's current pre-eminence -- I mean, what else are we going to talk about? (Well, quite a lot, actually, but you see what I mean... it's what's hot.)

(I really don't think the charge of "the threads are always really short and content light" stands up -- and while I haven't done a quant analysis, my cursory examination of threads indicated that most responses were ot one liners. Though brevity can be a virtue.)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Maybe -- just a guess -- it's not Grime Mark has a problem with (clearly not given what he's written about it) but Grime fans... maybe he perceives too much cultural proximity between Grime and hiphop? Too much aping by Grime culture of its more successful relation...

 

[Grievous Angel]

About the statistics: If I'm not mistaken, the threads of the first pages are not just the most recent ones, but also the most active ones, so the majority of short lived threads (grime or otherwise) would probably be on the last pages.

I think that the date of the most recent post is the only metric which VBulletin uses to rank the threads -- you can take a tiny thread from a year ago, post on it, and it'll go to the front of the queue. Obviously more active threads have more recent posts -- until they stop.

And if I'm wrong, you can go back and do the stats!

It seems to me that a lot of the grime threads are about recent shows (live or pirate radio), and that the board is often used less as a discussion forum, and more as way to find people to go to shows with (not just grime shows, obviously). Maybe we could simply make a subforum for this kind of thing, so they don't clog up the music pages?

Yeah, a Music Announcements thing might work.

But that would preclude multi-page in depth discussions of my mixes, which is clearly not what we want...

 

[Rambler]

Anyway, what level of Grime threads do people think is acceptable? Is 26% "too much"?

Other points aside, surely the 'acceptable' level is the level at which people want to, and happen to post. If someone's not happy with the proportion of Grime, they can always post about something else; I don't think there's anything to be achieved by setting even imaginary quotas for how much x or y the board should contain.

 

[stelfox]

i like eykah badu

i KNEW you were going to say that!

 

[john eden]

Other points aside, surely the 'acceptable' level is the level at which people want to, and happen to post. If someone's not happy with the proportion of Grime, they can always post about something else; I don't think there's anything to be achieved by setting even imaginary quotas for how much x or y the board should contain.

I disagree. I think the correct proportion would be exactly 17.8%.

Well maybe not, but seperate "Music: Discussion" and "Music: Announcements" fora would be useful if people bothered to use them correctly. However I think annoucments about gigs are supposed to go in "Misc" anyway -but people don't do that either because they don't know or because they correctly perceive that more people read this forum.

 

[hamarplazt]

I think that the date of the most recent post is the only metric which VBulletin uses to rank the threads -- you can take a tiny thread from a year ago, post on it, and it'll go to the front of the queue. Obviously more active threads have more recent posts -- until they stop.

Ehm, yes, that was my point... there'll be more short lived threads on the last pages because they stop pretty fast.

 

[k-punk]

Maybe -- just a guess -- it's not Grime Mark has a problem with (clearly not given what he's written about it) but Grime fans... maybe he perceives too much cultural proximity between Grime and hiphop? Too much aping by Grime culture of its more successful relation...

I have nothing whatsoever against Grime fans ... but I think the scene is very insular. I for one can't be bothered to chase around for 12 inches available in three shops that cost eight quid... There's no equivalent in Grime of the readily available CD comps that you used to get in jungle... I do agree that it has inherited hip hop's get rich quick fantasies, and I much preferred garage before the hip hop influence became so dominant --- i.e. 2 step.... but that's just me....

 

[bassnation]

('paid in full', anyone?)

i always thought that was more about getting paid at all, considering many black musicians in reggae and other genres have gone to their graves without earning a penny from their music.

i don't understand why people expect higher standards from hip hop than they do from society in general. music does not exist in a vacuum and its impossible to live in this system without being compromised in some way or another. i hardly think goth with its apolitical and spoilt no-one-understands-me theme is exempt from this.

and in any case, i'd rather emerse myself in the "rapacious greed" of modern-day hip hop (a gross generalisation than only stands up to scrutiny if you only take the basest chart hits as your sample) than ten year old navel gazing indie for introverts fronted by man who has the lipstick application skills of a 3 year old toddler.

 

[john eden]

I think that the date of the most recent post is the only metric which VBulletin uses to rank the threads

FYI that's the default but in each forum you can click on the column headings and rank by number of replies or rating or whatever.