i thought people wanted grime spam to stay up??

[Woebot]

I won't mention what the spam was, for fear of double spamming, but i would have thought letting people know about a FREE event with an often-dissensus-debated artist appearing, and offering forum members concessions for the door charge that starts after 9pm, would be left up.

this is seriously beginning to piss me off.

for the record i've tried a subforum in music called "events and mixes" and it totally wastes the forums design. looks like shite in short.

have you seen the amount of this self-promotional stuff that goes up!?! it goes in the bloody miscellaneous forum. END OF STORY.

and before anyone starts whingeing they can look at this thread:

http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?p=28936#post28936

started by me, promoting an evening at which i myself am playing. alright?!? is that good enough for you? if its good enough for the mug who foots the fucking bill for this place, then its good enough for everyone else.

 

[infinite thought]

eep...sorry woebot! didn't realised you'd tried the events subfolder thing already...

we all love dissensus! don't be cross!

 

[droid]

if its good enough for the mug who foots the fucking bill for this place, then its good enough for everyone else.

Yowch! We all know its your ball Woebot, but I for one would be more than happy to contribute a small amount to help cover costs. Start a Paypal account and put up a sticky asking for contributions. I think you might be surprised at the results.

The thing that bothers me about all this is not that youve made this decision (you were perfectly within your rights to do so), its that you put up a poll, asked for opinions - and then went ahead and ignored them all. This raises a few wider questions about this community IMO. Is Dissensus a democracy? Is it a dictatorship?

'Ownership' of the forum is not in question here, but as a (small) part of a community, it would be good to see that there is a rationale and a process behind the decisions which affect this forum, and that the wishes of the majority might be taken into consideration against the wishes of the minority (no matter how 'important' that minority may be).

To re-iterate yet again, this is a great forum (if a little intimidating), that has set itself apart by virtue of the civility and maturity of its contributors, and the fact that its users are from such a wide range of backgrounds. T'would be a shame if some of this charm went down the toilet due to some unnecessary (IMO) over-moderation...

Even if this were a democracy, the numbers of people who voted on the Grime spam thread were minuscule and were naturally biased towards Grimestas (many folk, like myself, presumably ignoring most threads with the word 'grime' in them as a matter of course).

I am neither a grimesta or a grime hater. I am however interested in the scene, and this is proabably the only non-grime specific forum on the web that covers grime, and as a result theres an interesting convergence of ideas and attitudes that you dont see on places like RWD. Also - everyone had a chance to vote on that poll (I even linked to it earlier, its had 45 votes, 49 replies and 1,157 views. If you add the views and comments on your 'before you post another' thread (5,482 views, 177 replies), then it becomes clear that this has been one of the most popular topics on Dissensus for quite some time, not to mention that most of this forums regulars make up the 'miniscule' amount of people who opposed your position (on both threads).

I simply reiterate that I ignore the Music Forum much of the time because of the thread density, much of which seems to come from grime spam. I support the idea of an events and announcements forum.

I really dont know where youre getting this from. The thread density on Dissensus is well lower than average. Most popular forums number daily posts in the hundreds, Dissensus on the other hand would be lucky to hit a hundred a day, and on slow days we're talking double figures. Compare this place to ILM for example... the opposite is true - there arent enough threads...

Whilst i obviously respect your opinion on this, I cant help but feel that the rationalisation behind this complaint is built on false assumptions and very subjective 'impressions' on how the board is working. Objectively speaking: Dissenus has few posts, by most fora's standards the level of self-promotion is very low, some of the 'grime spam' or self promotional threads result in interesting discussions, and - most importantly, the majority of Dissensus users who expressed an opinion voted overwhelmingly in favour of leaving things as they are.

People who only look in Music should broaden their horizons.

To a slightly less uptight forum perhaps? (joke! )

 

[k-punk]

I really dont know where youre getting this from. The thread density on Dissensus is well lower than average. Most popular forums number daily posts in the hundreds, Dissensus on the other hand would be lucky to hit a hundred a day, and on slow days we're talking double figures. Compare this place to ILM for example... the opposite is true - there arent enough threads...

Compare it to ILM ... well, precisely... a billion threads, impossible to find again once you've been on them, full of one-liners... exactly what should be avoided here I should have thought and what many of us came here specifically to avoid.. Lower than average compared to what? Rubbish music boards presumably. High quality fora tend to have fewer threads and longer discussions.

The democracy thing is a non-starter for two reasons:

1. 30 odd people out of hundreds ... it's meaningless

2. Who said it was a democracy in the first place? As Matt said, people who don't like the way things are done here are welcome to set up their own forum, pay for it, design it and deal with all the attendant stress etc etc.

 

[droid]

Compare it to ILM ... well, precisely... a billion threads, impossible to find again once you've been on them, full of one-liners... exactly what should be avoided here I should have thought and what many of us came here specifically to avoid..

Im not saying we should be like ILM - god forbid! Im just pointing out that all this talk of a 'deluge' of threads, of not being able to use Dissensus because of all, the grime 'spam' is a completely OTT when compared to fora where
spam and self promotion are genuine problems.

Lower than average compared to what? Rubbish music boards presumably. High quality fora tend to have fewer threads and longer discussions.

High quality fora have a mix of threads relating to the various interests of its contributors. Some conversational, some intellectual, some promotional, some silly. Not everyone feels like taking part in long convoluted discussions all the time, and mixes/gigs etc can be a good nail to hang your opinions on...

Heres a music forum that gets more than 100 posts a day. I guess by your standards that makes it rubbish

http://www.subvertcentral.com/forum/index.php

The democracy thing is a non-starter for two reasons:

1. 30 odd people out of hundreds ... it's meaningless

Not buying that at all. Around 1000 people viewed that poll, and chose not to vote. The 42 who did vote (judging from the comments) were all regular dissensors. I dont think its unreasonable to take it as a rough barometer of feeling here (plus the 3-1 against in the actual thread itself).

Your right about the meaningless bit though. it is fairly pointless to have a poll and then totally ignore its outcome.

2. Who said it was a democracy in the first place?

I aksed this question myself, and the answer is - Woebot I suppose. Obviously not explicitly, but putting up the poll kind of gave the impression that our collective opinion was being asked for a reason....

As Matt said, people who don't like the way things are done here are welcome to set up their own forum, pay for it, design it and deal with all the attendant stress etc etc.

Brilliant. Set up a poll, ask for opinions, ignore them, and then get shirty when your rationale is questioned! I guess thats the democracy issue conclusively laid to rest then...

We all appreciate the work thats been put in here, and as Ive mentioned above, Im sure many of us would be willing to contribute in some way, financially or otherwise.

 

[bassnation]

Brilliant. Set up a poll, ask for opinions, ignore them, and then get shirty when your rationale is questioned! I guess thats the democracy issue conclusively laid to rest then...

We all appreciate the work thats been put in here, and as Ive mentioned above, Im sure many of us would be willing to contribute in some way, financially or otherwise.

this is a reasonable and not unduly emotive analysis of the situation.

 

[SIZZLE]

I agree that having a poll and then doing more or less the opposite of what it indicated is a big mixed message. I found the signal to noise ratio here to be VERY low (for my taste) and didn't see the need for urgent change. I would be happy with a simple 'announcements' sticky in the main music forum similar to the 'grime gossip' thread, which seems to be serving it's purpose reasonably well. Regardless, cheers to Woebot for creating/maintaining this forum, it's great.

 

[gabriel]

.... good analysis ....

droid: big bars!

 

[nomos]

My last words on the matter...

I'm mostly with Droid on this. I appreciate the board and I appreciate that Matt pays the bills and keeps it running. I've met a lot of people here and made new friends and I'm glad to have it. I also run my own board and I understand that it's an expensive and often thankless effort. I also like to see Dissensus running in a logical way that satisfies its users as much as possible which is why I argued against grime ghettoization via the Misc forum. I likely wouldn't have argued at all (ultimately it's a very silly thing for any of us to get worked up about) had Matt not asked for our opinions and then gone ahead with his plan despite the result. At the same time I was personally frustrated because I asked direct questions that were ignored. Also it appeared as though "spam" was being defined as much by the perceived status of the poster as by the content of the post.

Regarding the framing of the debate: To argue that the majority of voters were necessarily people who wanted such threads to persist in the Music forum is a non-starter precisely because the question was phrased pejoratively (ie: "spam") and, if anything, was more likely to inspire those who dislike such threads to cast votes against. More generally, the question of Dissensus being a democracy is a non-starter not because one person owns the board, but because the members who constitute the community will turn away if they feel that their participation, outside of an arbitrary and shifting set of parameters, is being discouraged. I get the sense that grime is falling out of fashion amongst some of the early-adopters and that late-adopters are perceived as a bit of nuisance at this point.

I had to say all of that and now I'll shut up about this forever after.

The next question is how to enforce the Misc rule given that the most spammy offenders are such irregular visitors that they haven't even noticed this debate and the new rules that have emerged.

 

[gabriel]

The next question is how to enforce the Misc rule given that the most spammy offenders are such irregular visitors that they haven't even noticed this debate and the new rules that have emerged.

this seems to have been addressed with a sticky telling people where to post mixes and events - which makes a lot of sense

 

[nomos]

Yeah you're right. But we've also got new threads that are looking right past it.

 

[bassnation]

I get the sense that grime is falling out of fashion amongst some of the early-adopters and that late-adopters are perceived as a bit of nuisance at this point. .

i guess some would argue that the right time to get into a genre is when hipsters are deserting it

what we are witnessing is the rise of the "grime ted" - just like uk acid house with its coeterie of hipsters not wanting the masses getting into the scene and turning it into one of the most popular youth movements ever. it would be great to see that happen to garage, unlikely as it seems.

 

[droid]

Autonomic - Utterly OTM. And I too shall keep my trap shut about this from now on. I think we've all been guilty of making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill.

this seems to have been addressed with a sticky telling people where to post mixes and events - which makes a lot of sense

And it is understandable that Memes started this thread in light of the poll result and the fact that the sticky only popped up today. Though I groaned when I saw his post - I think it was a genuine misunderstanding, and not an attempt to get under anyones skin.

Look at the positives -. If nothing else this whole incident has shown that theres a lot of people who are genuinely concerned about the future development of Dissensus...


And that can only be a good thing!

 

[Woebot]

ok firstly i should acknowledge that droid is clearly having a bit of game at my expense. thats fine, but he should know that on top of running this place i have to (most crucially) raise two kids. i also work all gods hours (9am-1am last night and all this and last week)) i also do this column for FACT which I take seriously. i also write reviews for that mag the wire.

i dont know if you have kids, but certainly when you have two things are put into quite sharp perspective. i dont have an enormous amount of time to spend on the forum. it may be ought to be more widely known that i only visit once a day (strictly) and not at the weekends. trying to keep this place in what i call good shape (and mark and i set up the forum because we wanted to see one that differed from the less good ones) requires me to maybe be a bit brusque occassionally, largely dictated by the tiny amount of time i have to offer.

all this said, and as you clearly make the point elsewhere, good forums thrive on good threads. now i'm not asking for plaudits but i've started 274 "quality" threads here. those are usually thoroughly conceived "leaders" that would probably (or the energy they represent) have made for a stonking blog. the kind of blog like my old one WOEBOT, which actually (in a kind of facile way admittedly) got me somewhere as a writer and got me acknowledged.

274 threads. and just to give you some idea, mms (the boards largest poster) has started only 105 threads (thats a huge amount, but under half my count) and (just to give you another yardstick) dominc has started 65 threads. you, my friend (and i dont mean that unkindly) have started a grand total of 3 threads.

so you see, not only have i invested my money her (peanuts in truth) i've put a huge amount of energy into shaping the place. making it cool. behind the scenes working to attract the kind of people you like to be hanging out alongside at a forum.

I aksed this question myself, and the answer is - Woebot I suppose. Obviously not explicitly, but putting up the poll kind of gave the impression that our collective opinion was being asked for a reason....

Brilliant. Set up a poll, ask for opinions, ignore them, and then get shirty when your rationale is questioned! I guess thats the democracy issue conclusively laid to rest then...

i think you may have misunderstood what was at stake here! check what i said here:

http://dissensus.com/showpost.php?p=27787&postcount=15

what i was actually suggesting was pruning/deleting/permanently removing stuff which i thought was crap! by leaving it up i'm actually compromising!

i think there comes a time when a forum "gets on the map" and begins to attract this kind of (slightly vacuous) posting from free radicals, who as i mention post the same things on a billion other forums.

We all appreciate the work thats been put in here, and as Ive mentioned above, Im sure many of us would be willing to contribute in some way, financially or otherwise.

well thats very nice of you droid, but as i hope i've made clear the money is a red-herring. its the energy that matters. anyway the good news is that Diggedy Derek broadly agrees with me and he's offered to help me shift threads around.

for the record i've spent the last couple of months wondering whether, that in spite of its success, id be better shutting this place down. people have said to me (my closest confidants natch) pass it on to someone else to do , but actually that aint the point. ilm actually manages to be pretty good without much moderation, but most forums without close moderation or at least without someone behind them (though you can see tom having a whinge about what a thankless task it is from time to time) just become engulfed with self-promotional bullshit (which many of these threads i'm railing against amount to) and without people like me "setting the standard" and putting up cool stuff (blowing my own trumpet i know but its true) then they devolve into one-liners and people talking about their deoderant.

that forum you linked to droid, mate it looks OK but nearly all those threads are spam. just plain garbage.

 

[Woebot]

At the same time I was personally frustrated because I asked direct questions that were ignored. Also it appeared as though "spam" was being defined as much by the perceived status of the poster as by the content of the post.

I'm sorry if it appeared that way. I really *did* try to take on board everything that was said there. Please email me Paul and we talk a bit that way. alias@hollowearth.org