prehistory/early civilization/mythology

[nomadthethird]

Of course it could be something as simple as written language forming a concomitant part of a societal organisation revolving around centralised authority - which is inextricable from some form of hierarchy, and the most primitive social dichotomy is between the sexes.

And the most primitive way to exert authority over someone is by (threat of) brute force.

And men are generally bigger and stronger than women.

Yeah, but a lot of the earliest societies were matriarchal. It's really just Judeo-Christianity-Islam (mostly Christianity and Islam) that introduced patriarchy and monotheism (Judaism is NOT monotheistic, it just put its god above the others in the region), and along with it the masculine/feminine binary. Before then, and in other global regions, female deities were being worshipped.

It's funny, isn't it, that for most of human history [edit: but especially in western societies] we've spent all kinds of energy and cultural resources on socially controlling female sexuality, not male sexuality?

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think there have been patriarchal societies outside of the J-C-I complex, y'know. China, Japan...?

Also, I think Judaism is monotheistic now, but yes, they acknowledged other gods (henotheism, I think it's called) in the (distant) past.

 

[nomadthethird]

I think there have been patriarchal societies outside of the J-C-I complex, y'know.

Foot-binding in Imperial China, anyone?

But foot-binding in China is not evidence that they were under the influence of a patriarchal monotheism. [Although this is how people usually interpret this who can only look at it through the lens of Western binaries.]

While Asian cultures/societies have their own problems when it comes to women's rights, their forms of social and sexual repression have nothing to do with the divine right of teh mens handed down from He-Man Ceiling Cat.

 

[nomadthethird]

In fact, footbinding in China is a form of extreme fetishism--fetishism being something Asian societies are uniquely progressive about-- which is simply NOT ALLOWED under Christianity, unless T&A counts as a fetish (and many would agree that it does.)

Oh yeah, and crucifixes/cruciforms/crosses.

 

[nomadthethird]

Jesus was really just a Dvaitadvaita Hindu anyway, which its followers claim is 3000-5000 years old. It's kind of funny how he repackaged Eastern mysticism for the consumption of the Roman empire.

(This one's for Zhao.)

 

[Mr. Tea]

(This one's for Zhao.)

You two are so made for each other.

 

[Mr. Tea]

But foot-binding in China is not evidence that they were under the influence of a patriarchal monotheism. [Although this is how people usually interpret this who can only look at it through the lens of Western binaries.]

While Asian cultures/societies have their own problems when it comes to women's rights, their forms of social and sexual repression have nothing to do with the divine right of teh mens handed down from He-Man Ceiling Cat.

Sure, AFAIK it doesn't have a religious element. Sorry, I must have missed that bit in what you were saying - was looking at the patriarchy bit rather than monotheism.

Edit: I have to say, I can't really see what's so 'progressive' about gradually fucking up a young girl's feet until she can no longer walk. There's a distinct tang of Orientalism in the air from where I'm sitting...

Edit edit: the Catholic obsession with the Virgin - and her various possible antecedents (Isis, Diana...) - is a fascinating topic in its (her) own right, of course.

 

[nomadthethird]

Sure, AFAIK it doesn't have a religious element. Sorry, I must have missed that bit in what you were saying - was looking at the patriarchy bit rather than monotheism.

Edit: I have to say, I can't really see what's so 'progressive' about gradually fucking up a young girl's feet until she can no longer walk. There's a distinct tang of Orientalism in the air from where I'm sitting...

Edit edit: the Catholic obsession with the Virgin - and her various possible antecedents (Isis, Diana...) - is a fascinating topic in its (her) own right, of course.

There's nothing progressive about footbinding specifically, that's obviously problematic, for very obvious reasons, but how different is binding feet until they are deformed from, say, a corset, which binds torsos until they are deformed? The difference is in degree, rather than in kind.

[When women used to wear corsets everyday, the deformity was actually quite noticeable and marked. The situation then was comparable to the one we're seeing now with breast implants. Implants have changed male expectations regarding breasts, so that what's considered "normal" sized breasts is actually much larger than what you'd see occuring in nature without surgical intervention. When women wore corsets, as it became the norm to see women represented with deformedly narrow rib cages and waists, women were pressured to wear corsets, or the normal/natural women would look freaky.]

There is also a marked difference where the patriarchal context of torso-binding is concerned; being so steeped in "naturalized" heteronorms e.g. the masculine/feminine binary, many Westerners are precluded from being able to see their own fetishism at work (as in the case of a corset, or a high heel, or trousers on men, etc.). Whereas in most Asian societies fetishism is central to sexuality, heterosexual norms, and avowedly so. Fewer Asian people have a problem admitting that their sexuality is fetishistic than Euros/Americans do. See what I mean?

 

[nomadthethird]

Women wear bras now--you could say it "deforms" breasts to a certain degree. But it's a fetish, and let's face it, most of us prefer them. I do.

The idea that there's some sort of deeper, more "authentic" way to experience or engage in sexual activities, one where there is no (cultural, object-al, subjective, economic, etc.) mediation, but just "real" feelings that aren't tainted by the outside world, is a very strange and you might say uniquely Christian notion. You're right when you identify this as the place where the purity myth comes from... and of course, who is on the suffering end of that one more often than not?

 

[nomadthethird]

I wonder what you make of this statement from Baudrillard:

I disagree with it, but I do understand where he's coming from. I think the sentiment behind the statement applies well to second wave feminism, where the point is that females are only "free" if they become just like men, if sexual difference is denied and negated altogether, and if a strategy of gender apartheid, where the only legitimate option they believe open to feminists is disengagment with the gender other (sex segregation) and denial of the validity of every existing form of sexual expression, is adopted.

I think there's no problem with looking for rights where you can find them. How else does society progress toward an abstract goal or ideal of justice-freedom? Black people would still be slaves in the U.S. if they hadn't been legally freed. They still have a long way to go, of course. But I don't buy into the anti-civic engagement arguments, I think they're completely bogus and lame, and run counter to their own logic/examples 9 times out of 10. If someone has a plan for total transformation of society that makes some kind of sense, I'm open to listening. Until then, the only other option available to us is to change what's here now.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I was thinking about corsets (no, not in that way) while I typed that post about foot-binding - yes, both fetishistic, both severely detrimental to health, and I certainly didn't imply that one was AOK while the other was a terrible scourge. Victorian Britain was, after all, pretty much the archetypal patriarchal society. Although symbolically - if not practically - led by a woman, oddly enough.

Edit: "Fewer Asian people have a problem admitting that their sexuality is fetishistic than Euros/Americans do. See what I mean?"

Yes, I do see. That's interesting. Have you come to this conclusion from talking to Asian people about what turns them on, or from a more second-hand source?

 

[nomadthethird]

I was thinking about corsets (no, not in that way) while I typed that post about foot-binding - yes, both fetishistic, both severely detrimental to health, and I certainly didn't imply that one was AOK while the other was a terrible scourge. Victorian Britain was, after all, pretty much the archetypal patriarchal society. Although symbolically - if not practically - led by a woman, oddly enough.

Edit: "Fewer Asian people have a problem admitting that their sexuality is fetishistic than Euros/Americans do. See what I mean?"

Yes, I do see. That's interesting. Have you come to this conclusion from talking to Asian people about what turns them on, or from a more second-hand source?

It's not really my observation. It's been observed many times before by anthropologists, sociologists, and others.

 

[version]

Georges Bataille

Georges Bataille is by no means a necessarily agreeable figure as far as his theory goes, but his book on the huge collection of prehistoric art (cave painting) found at Lascaux in France is just incredible to read. This is as much due to the subject matter as Bataille's style. His book on eroticism takes place on a very similar theoretical bent, but again Bataille draws on very rich subject matter (he was a librarian by training and seems to demonstrate the breadth of a librarian's interests - he was particularly 'in to' the anthropological work of Marcel Mauss and Roger Caillois, which seems to have been big in France at the time).

So, those books again:

Georges Bataille, Lascaux, or the Birth of Art
Georges Bataille, Eroticism

Currently having a flip through another of his covering Lascaux:

The Cradle of Humanity: Prehistoric Art and Culture - Zone Books

_The Cradle of Humanity: Prehistoric Art and Culture_ collects essays and lectures by Georges Bataille spanning thirty years of research in anthropology,...

www.zonebooks.org

- The Cradle of Humanity: Prehistoric Art and Culture collects essays and lectures by Georges Bataille spanning thirty years of research in anthropology, comparative religion, aesthetics, and philosophy. These were neither idle nor idyllic years; the discovery of Lascaux in 1940 coincides with the bloodiest war in history — with new machines of death, Auschwitz, and Hiroshima. Bataille’s reflections on the possible origins of humanity coincide with the intensified threat of its possible extinction.

- For Bataille, prehistory is universal history; it is the history of a human community before its fall into separation, into nations and races. The art of prehistory offers the earliest traces of nascent yet fully human consciousness — of consciousness not yet fully separated from natural flora and fauna, or from the energetic forces of the universe. A play of identities, the art of prehistory is the art of a consciousness struggling against itself, of a human spirit struggling against brute animal physicality. Prehistory is the cradle of humanity, the birth of tragedy.

@WashYourHands You read this one?

 

[sufi]

Sugar rush: the sweet science of human genetic adaptation

ROX MIDDLETON, LIAM SHAW and MIRIAM GAUNTLETT examine how new genetic research reveals the rapid pace of human evolution in response to agricultural development, offering insights Marx would have found fascinating

morningstaronline.co.uk

 

[version]

Sugar rush: the sweet science of human genetic adaptation

ROX MIDDLETON, LIAM SHAW and MIRIAM GAUNTLETT examine how new genetic research reveals the rapid pace of human evolution in response to agricultural development, offering insights Marx would have found fascinating

morningstaronline.co.uk

Wonder whether people who develop Type 2 diabetes tend to have more copies of AMY1.

 

[Murphy]

Currently having a flip through another of his covering Lascaux:

The Cradle of Humanity: Prehistoric Art and Culture - Zone Books

_The Cradle of Humanity: Prehistoric Art and Culture_ collects essays and lectures by Georges Bataille spanning thirty years of research in anthropology,...

www.zonebooks.org

- The Cradle of Humanity: Prehistoric Art and Culture collects essays and lectures by Georges Bataille spanning thirty years of research in anthropology, comparative religion, aesthetics, and philosophy. These were neither idle nor idyllic years; the discovery of Lascaux in 1940 coincides with the bloodiest war in history — with new machines of death, Auschwitz, and Hiroshima. Bataille’s reflections on the possible origins of humanity coincide with the intensified threat of its possible extinction.

- For Bataille, prehistory is universal history; it is the history of a human community before its fall into separation, into nations and races. The art of prehistory offers the earliest traces of nascent yet fully human consciousness — of consciousness not yet fully separated from natural flora and fauna, or from the energetic forces of the universe. A play of identities, the art of prehistory is the art of a consciousness struggling against itself, of a human spirit struggling against brute animal physicality. Prehistory is the cradle of humanity, the birth of tragedy.

@WashYourHands You read this one?

no but clearly I’m going to have to!

prehistoric art studies are dominated by Palaeolithic cave art and Neolithic abstract motifs

the former tends to be a French and Spanish speciality because, while even Werner Herzog has dipped his toes into cave art, so much of the literature is written in each language its wider circulation has more ltd reach

just ordered @woops new book so it’s a ripe autumn for reading

 

[0bleak]

I often fall asleep with a random pick of something from youtube, and then I'll wake up some hours later and catch a bit of whatever completely different selection is playing based on their algorithm, I guess.
A couple of time lately I've caught bits of this one upon waking:


I'm interested enough now to consciously watch the whole thing.

I've watched about a third so far. Some notes (I apologize for my possibly stupid paraphrasing):

DNA research has now indicated that people crossed into the Americas as far back as 30-60 thousand years ago.
The oldest DNA is in the Amazon. They possibly sailed down all along the coast after coming from Siberia (and they're getting close to finally closing the book on that question after all of the DNA they've studied).
Over 6000 earthen platforms, roads, and agricultural features indicating a sophisticated urban society dating back to around 500 BCE in the amazon.
There's a good chance of a number of lost civilizations since water erodes and the jungle swallows things up a lot easier when there is no stone in the amazon for building structures.
Elsewhere, archeologists are seeing more and more things that actually predate Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations.
There are things on the Peruvian coast that are more definite examples of cradles of civilization that date back to 3 thousands BCE - big stone built pyramids and temples.
Thousands of pyramids - some have been buried over time by the desert and/or deteriorated when not built of stone.
There's at least one pyramid possibly going back as far as 6000 BCE.
Some of the first ones may have been for trash management.
There is a good chance that there was basically a "fang god" monotheistic religion with some slight variations that spread throughout south and central america for thousands of years (lost his fangs later in central america - he thinks the face became blurrier because people considered his face to be "unknowable"). Earlier archeologists my have assumed pantheism because of the other "supernatural" entities, but he draws a parallel with Christianity having angels, demons, son of god, holy ghost, etc.
As far as Peru, some archeologists are questioning whether you really need to have agriculture (or least it not need to be for food production) to have civilization when you have found other ways of working together to create food abundance - For example, one group does fishing and they trade with another group a few days walk away closer to the amazon that are growing cotton to make nets to trade for fish.

 

[0bleak]

I forgot to mention the puppy that follows the fanged god around jumping up and down and around him like excited puppies do.
So while the fanged god may have jaguar fangs, snakes for hair, and claws on his hands and feet, and carries around decapitated heads, he's not a monster.
Although it is weird that the puppy is depicted as also taking part in "healing sex acts" along with priests and other humans.

 

[Murphy]

Dogs turn up as wound cleaners at the healing shrine of pre-Roman Bath but no zoophilia

 

[version]

@Murphy

You see this?

A collection of human bones discovered 50 years ago in a Somerset pit are evidence of the bloodiest known massacre in British prehistory – and of bronze age cannibalism, archaeologists say.​

​

At least 37 men, women and children were killed at some point between 2200BC and 2000BC, with their bodies thrown into a deep natural shaft at Charterhouse Warren, near Cheddar Gorge.​

​

The first major scientific study since the bones were unearthed in the 1970s has now concluded that after their violent deaths, the individuals were dismembered and butchered, and at least some were eaten.​

​

Many of the victims’ skulls were shattered by the blows that killed them, and leg and arm bones had been cut away after death to extract the bone marrow. Hand and feet bones show evidence of having been chewed by human molars.​

‘Something horrible’: Somerset pit reveals bronze age cannibalism

Oxford analysis shows evidence of bloody massacre, with hand and feet bones chewed by human molars

www.theguardian.com