Maximo Park

[owen]

ha, if only it were so...surely universities have become ever more middle class and (culturally, politically) conservative since abolition of grants, etc...

there was some class mobility (especially in art schools) from about the 50s to the 80s, but that's long since declined, returning much to the situation in the 1926 where students from the Goldsmiths College fought workers on the streets during the general strike

 

[alo]

Minimo Park

Nice thread!

I think it seems that Maximo Park are as good a barometer for the state of 'indie'/ british guitar rock/ pop and wider culture as anything. Why not?
From a laymans perspective, would i be wrong in suggesting that the content and thrust of the NME has changed in the last 25 years ie: its a lot more conservative? It certainly seems to have a disproportionate influence on the guitar bands that 'make it', seeing as it is plugged right into the mainstream while trading onits alternative status among the playlisters and commercial programmers. This strategy seems to have reflected back and stabilised its own position---- At one time it was struggling sales wise i think.

Its dominance as a mouthpiece for the 'alternative' might in turn be seen to hamper the chances of chart success for more esoteric groups and musicians.

It also seems (i can't remember whether someone touched on this upthread) that the un-urgency of these new guitar chart groups and the plundering of post-punk motifs while leaving the politics and progressive rush that characterised that time alone,could be seen to reflect the new wider society. One of comparative economic tranquility, of more people frequenting impotent university courses, the rise of the service sector as the probable employment destination for many....Middling lukewarm consolidation and a feeling of inevitability as a possible general mood....?

 

[mms]

Nice thread!



Its dominance as a mouthpiece for the 'alternative' might in turn be seen to hamper the chances of chart success for more esoteric groups and musicians.

they aren't a mouthpiece for any alternative - they are a mouthpiece for the dominant which are big bands - and the culture of old fashioned sweaty male rock hegemony -bigger labels often even pay for covers if they can afford it .they are a gossip mag basically .they are as alternative as getting a tattoo or some other empty gesture.

You are right -it was struggling as a business at one point - it's not an independent publication remember - it's part of a huge multinational so the fact that if it underperforms in the most risky market of the media it is axed like anything else that underperforms in a large multinational.

 

[Moodles]

A question for British posters:

Do any of you know if any of the original post-punk bands had much chart success in the UK?

I ask because in the US post-punk bands, and really all indie rock/pop bands, and any rave music other than ultra-pop artists like Moby or Fat Boy Slim, never makes any kind of dent in the charts and is largely ignored by mainstream media and radio. It has been this way as far back as I can remember (mid-70s). To an American who is interested in non-mainstream music, the charts and media present nothing but undifferentiated crap and you have to look to alternative sources if you are interested in something different.

I get the sense from this thread that indie artists are seen as fighting it out with mainstream artists in the UK charts, radio, media, etc. That doesn't really happen over here where they are completely separate. "Alternative" radio in the US plays pretty much nothing but modern Metal. You only hear indie or electronic music on non-commercial radio over here. From my perspective, when I hear Franz Ferdinand on commercial "alternative" radio stations, it is a breath of fresh air, whereas in the UK, such a band may be seen as more mainstream than they do in the US.

 

[don_quixote]

ha, if only it were so...surely universities have become ever more middle class and (culturally, politically) conservative since abolition of grants, etc...

there was some class mobility (especially in art schools) from about the 50s to the 80s, but that's long since declined, returning much to the situation in the 1926 where students from the Goldsmiths College fought workers on the streets during the general strike

i dont think that's really what i'm saying, i think if you're from a working class background and come to university you become far more aware of class differences than if you're following the route society expects you to follow.

 

[alo]

[mms]they aren't a mouthpiece for any alternative  -  they are a mouthpiece for the dominant which are big bands - and the culture of old fashioned sweaty male rock hegemony  -bigger  labels often even pay for covers if they can afford it .they are a gossip mag basically .they are as alternative as getting a tattoo or some other empty gesture

Yeah my point exactly, a wolf in sheeps pete dohertyesque clothing.

it is plugged right into the mainstream while trading onits alternative status among the playlisters and commercial programmers.

It uses its supposed alternative band breaker status to shimmy itself into a buoyant position commercially.
Like you say, its basically a music themed Heat magazine.

 

[tryptych]

I get the impression that certainly Franz Ferdinand (from people who know them professionally) view themselves as a pop act, rather than anything really alternative. Don't really know about the other major players...

they aren't a mouthpiece for any alternative - they are a mouthpiece for the dominant which are big bands - and the culture of old fashioned sweaty male rock hegemony -bigger labels often even pay for covers if they can afford it .they are a gossip mag basically .they are as alternative as getting a tattoo or some other empty gesture.

You are right -it was struggling as a business at one point - it's not an independent publication remember - it's part of a huge multinational so the fact that if it underperforms in the most risky market of the media it is axed like anything else that underperforms in a large multinational.

I see "Commodify your Dissent" is still relevant today as it was 10 years ago. Noticed these themes come up alot in threads recently, from grime to indy...

 

[Ness Rowlah]

Do any of you know if any of the original post-punk bands had much chart success in the UK?

They sure did: Talking Heads, Soft Cell, Siouxsie, Magazine/Ultravox/Visage,
Echo and the Bunnymen/Teardrop Explodes, XTC, Joy Division/New Order, The Cure
Johnn Foxx/Gary Numan, Human League/Heaven 17 etc all charted.

I think even Wire were on the(album) charts, and possible Cabaret Voltaire as well. Something like Swell Maps probably didn't.

I might have a look in the books when I come home, but a lot
of these bands were on the charts. Not just the angular guitar bands -
this was the same time we had stuff like "Oh Superman"/Laurie Anderson at
number 2 in the singles charts so I think the public receptiveness to
"different" stuff (no doubt thanks to punk) just was different than today
(Il Divo, all that soft jazz etc in the charts).

 

[ewmy]

Not just the angular guitar bands -
this was the same time we had stuff like "Oh Superman"/Laurie Anderson at
number 2 in the singles charts so I think the public receptiveness to
"different" stuff (no doubt thanks to punk) just was different than today
(Il Divo, all that soft jazz etc in the charts).

O Superman vs Il Divo?! How specious a comparison is that?

Personally, I reckon music now is much better now than 1981 because of Shake A Leg vs The Birdie Song (which did better than O Superman in October 1981)

 

[ewmy]

Just to clear up any possible confusion, I do think that the 1981 chart beats this week about 25-10. Which makes music exactly 2.5x worse now than 1981 - a still more realistic and reasoned argument than O Superman vs Il Divo...

 

[Ness Rowlah]

I might have a look in the books when I come home, but a lot
of these bands were on the charts.

I had a quick lookup last night. Taking only the artists mentioned in the index
of Simon's book on postpunk and then checking in "The Great Rock Discography".

• Public Image Ltd - 12th for "Pil" and 5 for the "This is Not a Love Song" singles, debut album went to 22
• Magazine - 28th in the album charts
• Vic Godard - none (hard to believe that "Stop That Girl" did not chart)
• Pere Ubu - none
• Devo - 12th in the albums
• Pop Group - none
• Slits - 30th in the albums
• Gang of Four - 45th in the albums
• Talking Heads - " '77" went to 60th, More Songs .. and Remain in Light both to 21st in the albums
• Wire - 39th for "154"
• Cabaret Voltaire - 31st for "Crackdown"
• Human League - 1st (after the girls joined, but "Travelogue" went to 16)
• The Fall - 54th
• Joy Division - 6th for "Closer" ("Love Will Tear Us Apart only made it to 13 in the singles)
• Throbbing Gristle - none

Using such a simple list might not be scientific -
but in the UK (and parts of the continent) these bands made an
an impact in sales and awareness (not many number ones though).

The British music papers sold by the bucketloads in those days
(and magazines like Mojo and Record Collector still cash in on those readers -
with covers on goths, Kate Bush, New York punks, synth pop and so on).

Pre-goths like Siouxsie&the Banshees/The Cure and
pre-newromantics like Ultravox!/Simple Minds are not listed in the "Rip it Up" index.

---

I guess the problem in the US was that punk didn't really happen
on a European scale - so obviously postpunk was even less of a phenomenon over the Atlantic.
A band like Tuxedomoon moved to Europe to survive.