Will they be doing live orchestrated versions of IMP Batch's 'Gype' and 'Fusion'?! I'd pay good money to experience that!
Grime vs Classical on Radio 3
- Thread starter tryptych
- Start date
Jezmi said:
Nah. I really don’t want to agree with labrat (see below) but that is crap. More ‘worthy’? On what basis?
labrat said:
Sorry but I’m not gonna let this one go. How many classical musicians do you know? How much classical music have ever you been exposed to (bearing in mind you feel able to dismiss it all as ‘shit’)? And by ‘classical music’, I’m *not* talking about Bond and Charlotte Church.
Rambler said:
Hmm, I don’t think that’s something we can know at this stage. It’s true that crossover projects don’t have a great track record (Metallica/Radiohead arranged for strings; Paul McCartney/Roger Waters et al thinking they can venture into orchestral composition/opera with cringeworthy results) but hey, let’s wait and see. I for one am quite interested. Btw did anyone go to see that orchestral collaboration Dizzee did last year/earlier this year? I think it was with the London Sinfonietta.
Tyro said:
That would probably depend on whether the orchestra were producing primarily rhythmic sounds or ambient backdrops. Like Tyro says, big washes of sound could work. I reckon a nice static 12-note chord on divided strings would work well with some heavy Plasticman beats…
But then again, perhaps they could play rhythms too. The problem with getting 80 orchestral musicians to ‘swing together’ is basically, I think, the emphasis in classical training on a particular kind of rhythmic exactitude. That’s why it never sounds quite right when orchestras play jazz (I’m not talking about swing bands obviously): they can’t allow themselves the necessary flexibility. But when you’re talking about a type of music like Grime which has its roots in computer programmes – which do allow you to be very rhythmically exact – I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. I think the key is just avoiding the naffness which inevitably ensues when orchestras try to sound ‘hip’. They aren’t.dogger said:
Basis being my opinion, which has come from personal preferences and influences from others. Not a scientific basis, not factual and certainly not trying to be
There is something to be said for the social aspect of producing music. Computer production is a bit lonely. Part of the creation of music is everybody's input, which leads to beautiful things.
Jezmi said:Basis being my opinion, which has come from personal preferences and influences from others. Not a scientific basis, not factual and certainly not trying to be
There is something to be said for the social aspect of producing music. Computer production is a bit lonely. Part of the creation of music is everybody's input, which leads to beautiful things.
Ok fair enough. Sorry if i came across a bit harsh there. It's true that computer production can be a bit lonely, but it doesn't have to be (too many producer/DJ-duos to mention). And writing music for acoustic instruments can be a lonely business as well. So the individual-social dichotomy doesn't really map onto the acoustic-electronic one at all. Are you saying that if a piece of music arises out of a jam session or a collaboration then it will be better than a piece of music written by an individual in isolation? Because that doesn't seem to me to make any rational sense whatsoever. All I can assume is that you like the cosy, 'peoply' notion that music arises directly out of social interaction, using 'real' instruments, but I really think this is quite sentimental. Surely it's the effect of the music which determines its quality, over and above how it was produced? I agree with you that collaboration is a valid mode of producing music - but it is not the only one. Group creativity has its downsides as well. How do you avoid the cliches of 'general opinion'? What do you do when people creatively disagree? I, for one, find it very hard to produce anything of value when other people are involved as well. I might be alone in this, but I think I am not.
I meant more that the process of computer production involves far fewer people than the process of writing music for instruments (and more specifically pieces of music for multiple instruments).
I think just the fact that more people have an opinion, or perspective of the music gives it a larger presence (i use presence cos i cant find a better word right this minute)
I think just the fact that more people have an opinion, or perspective of the music gives it a larger presence (i use presence cos i cant find a better word right this minute)
Jezmi said:
Oh I see. You are talking about reproduction as (as opposed to just production/composition per se). I think that's an interesting idea - relates to the fact that with electronic music, the producer and the 'performer' are generally the same person. And 'presence' is a good word. I suppose you could talk about it in terms of perspectives as well i.e. there are more individual perspectives/interpretations that go to make up the whole in a piece of music for lots of instruments than in a studio-produced dance track. But I still don't think that necessarily has a bearing on the *quality* of the whole.
Dateline 2006 The Royal Albert Hall.The Last night of the Proms.Davinche conducts The Royal Phillharmonic in an arrangement of DJ Mondie's ''The Best Of British''{AKA The British National Anthem}The crowd sway from side to side in a spirit of unity whilst waving huge lighted spliffs aloft.
Don't want to see this become a reality? Are You Stupid?
Don't want to see this become a reality? Are You Stupid?
MATT MAson
BROADSIDE
But this isn't 'reality'.
It's a poorly thought out idea for a radio show for a bunch of cardigan wearing middle England housewives who are NEVER going to buy a grime record.
This isn't the BBC doing something negative, but it's not exactly positive. A bunch of 40 year old radio execs descend from their ivory towers for two seconds with a hair-brained scheme to do something for the poor kids. But how is this going to make an iota of difference to anyone in the scene? How is this going to help? Really?
The chattering classes will hear the word 'grime' one more time. And promptly forget about it.
Whoopee-doo
Until the government make a concious decision to legislate and get behind British urban music the way the French did, it's not gonna happen for in any kind of major way for grime, UK hip hop or anything else. It's that simple. It doesn't make financial sense for the major labels or the commercial stations to take risks on new scenes in any significant way. I spent years trying to convince myself otherwise, but if you take Occam's razor and cut through all the hot air, this is the answer you get.
As for these three wildy different groups getting together and coming up with something creative, sustainable and meaningful because a bunch of out of touch suits from somewhere else think it could work, there's more chance of that happening in Iraq.
It's a poorly thought out idea for a radio show for a bunch of cardigan wearing middle England housewives who are NEVER going to buy a grime record.
This isn't the BBC doing something negative, but it's not exactly positive. A bunch of 40 year old radio execs descend from their ivory towers for two seconds with a hair-brained scheme to do something for the poor kids. But how is this going to make an iota of difference to anyone in the scene? How is this going to help? Really?
The chattering classes will hear the word 'grime' one more time. And promptly forget about it.
Whoopee-doo
Until the government make a concious decision to legislate and get behind British urban music the way the French did, it's not gonna happen for in any kind of major way for grime, UK hip hop or anything else. It's that simple. It doesn't make financial sense for the major labels or the commercial stations to take risks on new scenes in any significant way. I spent years trying to convince myself otherwise, but if you take Occam's razor and cut through all the hot air, this is the answer you get.
As for these three wildy different groups getting together and coming up with something creative, sustainable and meaningful because a bunch of out of touch suits from somewhere else think it could work, there's more chance of that happening in Iraq.
Logan Sama
BestThereIsAtWhatIDo
The French actually marginalised their own urban music, even bringing cases against artists for inciting social upheaval.
The French ruling on broadcast radio exists in order to preserve the french language, not to promote their own urban music.
The only way Grime is going to do anything is if the artists bring in organized business minded people who are not going to allow major labels to make a lot of money form the artists and not invest any of it back.
The French ruling on broadcast radio exists in order to preserve the french language, not to promote their own urban music.
The only way Grime is going to do anything is if the artists bring in organized business minded people who are not going to allow major labels to make a lot of money form the artists and not invest any of it back.
kennel_district
Active member
MATT MAson said:
From the BBC website:
Mixing It has long been celebrated as a bastion of experimental music radio. It covers a wide range of styles, including left-field areas of modern classical, dance, rock and world music. Hosted by Robert Sandall and Mark Russell.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/mixingit
I'm not sure that the characterisation of radio execs above helps, either. It's just as unhelpful as some of the mainstream media's characterisation of grime artists. It's a bit lazy - these people might genuinely be interested in musical experimentation.
Who knows what this will be like, but I'll certainly be interested to hear it.
it does sound a bit naff but who knows. I don't really see any harm in it. According to the blurb davinche is a classically trained musician... does that mean he's pias (pious?) too? Housewives might forget about grime again the next day but it may lend further credibility to grime as an important genre in the eyes of those 'evil record exec" types... (is this a good thing or a bad thing? i don't know)
major labels usually wait till an underground music style gets to a certain level of mass popularity independently before they start handing out their nasty contracts... look at grunge for a (bad and perhaps completely irrellevant) comparison... it wasn't until nirvana were huge that a&r's went on a signing rampage...
unfortunately dizzee's sales probably weren't big enough to warrant that kind of thing... if kano or (gulp) lady sov can generate some big sales somewhere it might mean we can actually get hold of other artists' stuff more easily. then again... maybe it'll just mean we'll wait two years after hearing a "request line" type dubplate before it gets a commercial release.
in conclusion... my mind is a giant feedback loop and it just ate 40 seconds of your life ( ? _ ? )
gomen
major labels usually wait till an underground music style gets to a certain level of mass popularity independently before they start handing out their nasty contracts... look at grunge for a (bad and perhaps completely irrellevant) comparison... it wasn't until nirvana were huge that a&r's went on a signing rampage...
unfortunately dizzee's sales probably weren't big enough to warrant that kind of thing... if kano or (gulp) lady sov can generate some big sales somewhere it might mean we can actually get hold of other artists' stuff more easily. then again... maybe it'll just mean we'll wait two years after hearing a "request line" type dubplate before it gets a commercial release.
in conclusion... my mind is a giant feedback loop and it just ate 40 seconds of your life ( ? _ ? )
gomen
Last edited:
MATT MAson said:
british A&Rs dont believe in getting behind urban music from the uk when the money is rolling in from american exports. they dont see the point in investing in anything here, plus theyre all out of touch with anything but indie shite. big up semtex, but who did he sign to def jam uk? MOR urban artists like taz and the girl group fire.
when it comes to british urban music, the majors are virtually allergic to whats happening here, and have no clue about how to handle what we have, so even 'urban' A&Rs end up playing it safe. i read an interview with charlie dark recently and he was saying all A&R men are always told to look at whats happening in america so its no wonder the situation is what it is.
its a shame cos a lot of grime MCs could probably do well with some proper A&Ring. but thats the way labels work now - they generally will only take you on if its proven that you can sell (ie if you sell decent numbers underground). if grime is struggling to shift white labels, then theyre gonna think its not worth their while.
MATT MAson
BROADSIDE
That's my point - it's not worth their while right now.
But it's not cos all A&Rs are evil and clueless (Semtex, for one works really hard to support the UK within the framework of Def Jam - as for the artists signed and what happened to them, that's a whole series of long stories) or the radio execs (I still stand by my position that this classical music thing is naff, and I've met a fair few BBC radio people over the years who fit the description I gave) are mindless corporate droids hiding under cardigans.
And it's not because there aren't experienced business people backing grime. Plenty of underground scenes came through in times gone by without some Malcom McClaren type or a dude with an MBA at the helm (although a little more organization in the scene wouldn't be a bad thing). It's because the framework of the music industry is no longer constructed in such a way that will let new scenes be anything more than passing fads.
The legislation in France was to preserve the language. But it also preserved French pop music, and allowed French hip hop to flourish. And it seems to me to be one of the only methods thats worked.
Protectionism isn't my favourite approach to a problem, but with Western culture being homogenised on so many levels as fewer and fewer companies take control of more and more labels, media outlets and distribution channels, it's starting to seem like a good idea.
But it's not cos all A&Rs are evil and clueless (Semtex, for one works really hard to support the UK within the framework of Def Jam - as for the artists signed and what happened to them, that's a whole series of long stories) or the radio execs (I still stand by my position that this classical music thing is naff, and I've met a fair few BBC radio people over the years who fit the description I gave) are mindless corporate droids hiding under cardigans.
And it's not because there aren't experienced business people backing grime. Plenty of underground scenes came through in times gone by without some Malcom McClaren type or a dude with an MBA at the helm (although a little more organization in the scene wouldn't be a bad thing). It's because the framework of the music industry is no longer constructed in such a way that will let new scenes be anything more than passing fads.
The legislation in France was to preserve the language. But it also preserved French pop music, and allowed French hip hop to flourish. And it seems to me to be one of the only methods thats worked.
Protectionism isn't my favourite approach to a problem, but with Western culture being homogenised on so many levels as fewer and fewer companies take control of more and more labels, media outlets and distribution channels, it's starting to seem like a good idea.
its interesting to see grime's reaction to the homogenisation - i think most artists know the problems theyre up against, which is why if you listen to a lot of new vocal tracks on rinse (at least the ones ive heard), if it wasnt for the britishness of the voices, they could pass quite easily for american urban fare (and even with the vocals, there seems to be less of the refusal to combat homogeny, more of a decision to still retain some of grime's individuality, but to try and find a middle ground between that and what might gain wider mainstream acceptance)
On the 'swing' question - OK, not the best choice of words. I really meant groove. Yes, grime beats are precision machined, but so are Aphex and Squarepusher beats, and last I saw the London Sinfonietta had real trouble playing those convincingly. That metronomic repetition works against the instincts of an orchestral player, who will want to nuance and flex everything, just a little. This sounds like I'm contradicting what I said before, and I sort of am; what I really mean though is the collective rhythmic mind of an orchestra isn't suited to programmed beats - or swung jazz rhythms either. What's more, the Sinfonietta are a crack ensemble, one of the best in the game - which the BBC Concert Orchestra are not. They might have even more trouble.
However, if the orchestra is there to provide instrumental washes and so on, and the beats are coming from somewhere else electronic then that would be better. Part of the whole grime/dubstep sound, as has been mentioned on another thread, is that crisp, heavily gated sound, which is very difficult to reproduce on acoustic instruments (resonance of the instrument, resonance of the room, physical capabilities of the players, etc.)
I'm not against this idea, but if it's going to work, I think it has to be done intelligently; certainly straight orchestral arrangements of Grime riddems isn't going to work. It needs to be something more active between MCs/producers and the orchestra.
On the 'Gype' tip - I'm fairly sure that flute sample is Vivaldi, can anyone confirm?
However, if the orchestra is there to provide instrumental washes and so on, and the beats are coming from somewhere else electronic then that would be better. Part of the whole grime/dubstep sound, as has been mentioned on another thread, is that crisp, heavily gated sound, which is very difficult to reproduce on acoustic instruments (resonance of the instrument, resonance of the room, physical capabilities of the players, etc.)
I'm not against this idea, but if it's going to work, I think it has to be done intelligently; certainly straight orchestral arrangements of Grime riddems isn't going to work. It needs to be something more active between MCs/producers and the orchestra.
On the 'Gype' tip - I'm fairly sure that flute sample is Vivaldi, can anyone confirm?