Australians: what the f*ck is going on?

[ripley]

I haven't found much specific history about this - was there something that set it off?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17532940-2,00.html

 

[hmg]

Looks like they're celebrating diversity.

 

[mms]

thats terrifying

 

[sufi]

yeah I thought when i read the headline that it must be a follow up to the troubles with the 'aboriginal' folk in Redfern district in Sydney, this however seems to indicate that their are 'race issues' going thru different and maybe more affluent sections of society?

never having visited oz i have this limey predjudice that it's maybe like south africa, except with whites have pursued race politics to the point where other groups got totally marginalised by the 20th C, then apparently more relaxed attitudes to immigration over the past couple of decades have turned around in a backlash exemplified by Pauline Hanson & now this...

...but maybe that's just limey envy cos the weathers f*ing brass monkeys here, don't get i started on apartheid in the USA anyway...

 

[the undisputed truth]

apparently it's been brewing for ages...

...what cracks me up is the cracka ass cracka PM denies OZ has an underlying racial intolerance issue

from what i can gather it's mostly kids letting off steam...

...god bless em

 

[Buick6]

Numerous issues are the cause.

The Yobbos would claim (and to some degree correctly) that the Lebbo gangs come down to this beach-side suburb and harass the Aussie-surfie-chicks for sex and other things (refer to the book/film 'Puberty Blues' for references). The cops don't do enough, so the bogens have taken matters into their own drunken hands. Alan Jones a right wing/populist/idiot radio jock has run this baton for years, especially since the pack-rape of some young white-Aussie girls by a gang of Lebbo yobs. Add the whole alleged terrorist related arrests in recent times, John Howard flat-out DENYING that Australian are racist (obviously forgot our famous WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY), a convict past, and you have perfect ground for this to happen. Mind you alot of this stuff is reminicent of the Soccer Hooliganism stuff the UK were pretty good at during Thatcher times. Maybe they need some eccies to luv themselves (and each other) up?

One of the gangs that were biffing Lebbos is called the 'BRA BOYS'!!

http://au.news.yahoo.com/051212/2/x6x5.html

And to add complexity they are a multi-culti lot.

Kinda ironic as the Cronulla Beaches was where MIDNIGHT OIL and COLD CHISEL built up alot of their following, and alot of these yobs were involved in surfie clubs! Must be that skunk making 'em all para!

 

[D84]

This has been brewing and it's been brewed by our conservative leaders dog whistling to distract voters' attention from the absolutely shameful week of parliament last week where the Federal government basically banned unionism, legislated for an "anti-terror" secret police, and extended our involvement in Iraq for another year - and guillotined any debate in the Senate etc....

This government has been winding up the racists for almost 10 years now ever since it worked out there were votes to be won in it.

And the media (and the opposition) have gone along with it - either because they secretly agree with the Liberal's agenda or because they've too timid to call them out over their dog-whistling.

There's some good stuff on the Cronulla/Shire in the paper this morning which I can't seem to find online at the moment. Basically its a white suburban enclave joined to the rest of the city by a bridge and inhabited by Hobbits as some of us like to call them - they think it's god's country etc.

But that said many of the rioters who went there on Sunday came from other suburbs, probably nowhere near a beach. No doubt they were summoned by the dog whistles.

 

[Pearsall]

wait! leftists! why aren't you following the script?

y'know, the one that goes:

of course, we really deplore these events, but you have to put them into context, you really, well, have to examine the root causes. you have to understand what has been going on and not rush to judgment. above all, you must remember that what has happened is a cry for help.

or is that one only for when it is mystical n' vibrant 'people of color' rioting?

 

[D84]

Well, Pearsall, the difference is that this wasn't so much a riot as a lynch mob.

Also these people aren't particularly badly off: they aren't housed in projects and most of them are employed (hence the event being organized on a Sunday).

I'll dig out some references when I get home and have access to the news web-sites...

There were also white supremacist groups there as well who said that they scarpered off to the pub when things got rough...

And, that's not to say that the "ethnic" youth gangs who were targeted are angels either..
(that's probably close enough to your lefty stereotype, Pearsall, ay? ; )

Oh and Buick6, today's Sydney Morning Herald has a few transcripts of Alan Jones' show last week (he's on summer holidays from this week). Really dodgy stuff... If I can't find it online I'll type some up when I get home.

 

[Pearsall]

so it's ok when they live in projects? just checking.

me? i just think thuggery is thuggery.

 

[D84]

True but like the Paris riots the thuggery was exacerbated by politicians saying inflammatory things.

Here is the link for the Alan Jones talkback radio quotes - a sample:

BY THURSDAY Alan Jones was screaming like a race caller whose horse was coming home. "I'm the person that's led this charge here. Nobody wanted to know about North Cronulla, now it's gathered to this."
...
He assured his audience he "understood" why that famous text message went out and he read it right through again on air: "Come to Cronulla this weekend to take revenge. This Sunday every Aussie in the shire get down to North Cronulla to support the leb and wog bashing day …"
...
When John called on Tuesday to recommend vigilante action - "If the police can't do the job, the next tier is us" - Jones did not dissent. "Yeah. Good on you John." And when he offered a maxim his father had picked up in the war - "Shoot one, the rest will run" - Jones roared with laughter. "No, you don't play Queensberry's rules. Good on you, John."

Pity poor Berta - "not of a Middle Eastern family" - who reported hearing "really derogatory remarks" aimed at Middle Eastern people on Cronulla beach. Jones cut her off: "Let's not get too carried away, Berta. We don't have Anglo-Saxon kids out there raping women in western Sydney."

I don't think that's even dog whistling...

And in case think every Aussie surfer gang is racist, the Bra Boys (from Maroubra Beach) organised a press conference today with some Lebanese gang members to express their disgust with the Cronulla violence and peace with other Sydney ethnic groups.

Some good articles on Cronulla here and here . This one's also good.

On a lighter note a friend of mine just sent me the following SMS which must be doing the rounds:

"All true aussies assemble at cronulla beach tonight for hobbit bashing. Attack anyone of middle earthen appearance"

 

[droid]

wait! leftists! why aren't you following the script?

y'know, the one that goes:

or is that one only for when it is mystical n' vibrant 'people of color' rioting?

Jesus Pearsall - I thought you were taking the piss with your 'i like to bait leftists' remark in the 'political blog recommendations?' thread...

Maybe it would have been more accurate to say: 'All Im capable of doing is baiting leftists'!

At least put some meat on the hook for Christsakes...

BTW - I havent yet heard or seen anyone refer to these riots as "Christian' riots - so why arent you following the script? Do you only apply idiotic religious generalastions to large groups of people when they happen to be brown skinned or Islamic?

 

[Pearsall]

Dunno, if you've seen them, but here's a Flickr photo set from Sunday.

True but like the Paris riots the thuggery was exacerbated by politicians saying inflammatory things.

What was the difference between what Sarkozy said and what everyone is now piling on to say about these white thugs in Cronulla? Nothing at all, except the global left lost their fucking minds when Sarkozy, correctly, called his own rioters 'scum'. How dare he? etc etc etc

Alain Finkielkraut called this syndrome correctly in that famous and controversial Haaretz interview last month:

Imagine for a moment that they were whites, like in Rostock in Germany. Right away, everyone would have said: `Fascism won’t be tolerated.’ When an Arab torches a school, it’s rebellion. When a white guy does it, it’s fascism. I’m `color blind.’ Evil is evil, no matter what color it is.

Here is the link for the Alan Jones talkback radio quotes - a sample:


I don't think that's even dog whistling...

Right. Alan Jones sounds like a full-scale asshole. I would imagine you have incitement to violence laws in Australia, no? Sounds like he could be up for that.

I'd read the rest of those articles already, as it goes, but cheers for the links anyway. What about this one, though, from the 6th? How accurate is it that Lebanese dudes have been causing trouble in Cronulla for years? Poking around the net last night I also found this article, written by an ex-cop (who had this to say about the riots)...how big are Lebanese crime syndicates in Sydney? As bad as he says? Or is it all a bit hyperbolic?

 

[Pearsall]

Jesus Pearsall - I thought you were taking the piss with your 'i like to bait leftists' remark in the 'political blog recommendations?' thread...

Maybe it would have been more accurate to say: 'All Im capable of doing is baiting leftists'!

Well, I was right, though. I mean, leftists love to cloak themselves in moral superiority, even though members of their ideological tribe killed more people over the past century than anyone else.

(It's all just fun and games, though, you know, I'm sure you aren't planning to follow in the footsteps of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengistu etc etc etc just as you know that evil right-wing me is hardly a Franco or Hitler.)

BTW - I havent yet heard or seen anyone refer to these riots as "Christian' riots - so why arent you following the script? Do you only apply idiotic religious generalastions to large groups of people when they happen to be brown skinned or Islamic?

Well, I personally never called the Noble Banlieu Uprising™ 'Islamic riots', but lots of people did outside of the mainstream media. What do you want me to say? They were mostly wrong, sure. (I read a huge, huge amount of stuff on the riots at the time, and the reality is that Islamist-type sentiments sometimes surfaced among some of the 'demonstrators,' but it was hardly dominant).

By the same coin, of course, don't you find it fascinating that for days upon days of the rioting there the English-language media only referred to the participants as nebulous 'youths', whereas all of the first stories from Cronulla made big big play out of the fact that the participants were white?

 

[droid]

Well, I was right, though. I mean, leftists love to cloak themselves in moral superiority, even though members of their ideological tribe killed more people over the past century than anyone else.

Ill have to call you up on all this 'black book of communism' bs you keep on coming out with - your moral equations are based on some very shaky assumptions...

but now is not the time...

(It's all just fun and games, though, you know, I'm sure you aren't planning to follow in the footsteps of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengistu etc etc etc just as you know that evil right-wing me is hardly a Franco or Hitler.)

Im not one for caricature or fixed adversarial roles myself - so this sentiment gets the thumbs up from me.

Well, I personally never called the Noble Banlieu Uprising™ 'Islamic riots', but lots of people did outside of the mainstream media. What do you want me to say? They were mostly wrong, sure. (I read a huge, huge amount of stuff on the riots at the time, and the reality is that Islamist-type sentiments sometimes surfaced among some of the 'demonstrators,' but it was hardly dominant).

It was meant rhetorically anyways Pearsall.

By the same coin, of course, don't you find it fascinating that for days upon days of the rioting there the English-language media only referred to the participants as nebulous 'youths', whereas all of the first stories from Cronulla made big big play out of the fact that the participants were white?

Isnt this a bad comparison? Havent these rioters distinguished themselves specifically by their violent hostility to an immigrant minority and their use of racial slurs? Werent neo-nazi white power groups initially involved?

Basically, all riots are not the same. Racially motivated local conflict between the extreme fringes of two or more urban based ethnic groups can hardly be compared to large scale nationwide rioting directed at authority structures and private property.

Apples and oranges again.

 

[Pearsall]

Ill have to call you up on all this 'black book of communism' bs you keep on coming out with - your moral equations are based on some very shaky assumptions...

but now is not the time...

Why not? What shaky assumptions? Were Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Mengistu, Pol Pot, and the rest of the constellation of dictators and Communist guerilla groups not responsible for the deaths of tens upon tens of millions of people? It's all a myth put out there to discredit the magical accomplishments of 'actually existing socialism'?

Isnt this a bad comparison? Havent these rioters distinguished themselves specifically by their violent hostility to an immigrant minority and their use of racial slurs? Werent neo-nazi white power groups initially involved?

Well, didn't the banlieusard rioters distinguish themselves by their violent hostility to France (and you know as well as I do that these types of characters have hardly been hesitant in attacking the white French over recent years)? Weren't Islamist groups partially involved there, too? Of course, we both know that both of these events were driven mainly by factors besides neo-Nazism or Islamism, and that those ideological types were merely fringe actors in both cases.

My main point, of course, is about actions. I would say that the violence in France is just as reprehensible as the violence in Australia. This opinion is clearly beyond the pale.

 

[droid]

Why not? What shaky assumptions? Were Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Mengistu, Pol Pot, and the rest of the constellation of dictators and Communist guerilla groups not responsible for the deaths of tens upon tens of millions of people? It's all a myth put out there to discredit the magical accomplishments of 'actually existing socialism'?

Because it would take far too much time - and I have lot to do before Christmas!

(It doesnt help that the framing of your assertion seems utterly ideological in motivation btw... hardly grounds for a fertile discussion)

Well, didn't the banlieusard rioters distinguish themselves by their violent hostility to France (and you know as well as I do that these types of characters have hardly been hesitant in attacking the white French over recent years)? Weren't Islamist groups partially involved there, too? Of course, we both know that both of these events were driven mainly by factors besides neo-Nazism or Islamism, and that those ideological types were merely fringe actors in both cases.

France is a nation - not a person - being 'anti-france' isnt being racist - and Im happy to concede that there may have been Islamist involvement at the fringes of the riots - but i still think there is a huge difference in scale, quality and motivation between these two events.

My main point, of course, is about actions. I would say that the violence in France is just as reprehensible as the violence in Australia. This opinion is clearly beyond the pale.

TBH - I dont know enough about what happened in France to unequivocally make such a judgement. The situation in Australia seems a bit fuzzy at the moment - but given the institutionalised racism prevalant in sectors of Australian society, the stories of racially motivated riotting dont seem to far-fetched to me.

Sure we can condemn all violence as bad - but where does that get us? Its not about whether violence is good or bad - but whether it is in any way justified, enjoys popular support, and can be prevented from re-occuring in the future.

 

[Pearsall]

(It doesnt help that the framing of your assertion seems utterly ideological in motivation btw... hardly grounds for a fertile discussion)

Of course it is ideologically framed, as your defence/dissent/whatever would be! But this is all a side issue, really, so moving on...

My interest in the comparison of this event to the French riots is what it highlights about liberalism/leftism that caused my political views to change so drastically. The French riots were my 'fire bell in the night' moment - reading through reams and reams of utter horseshit in the Grauniad, NYT, WashPost, BBC etc etc and seeing how the response, emotionally felt, was to immediately seek understanding while (tacitly) condoning. This situation in Cronulla, of course, inspires exactly the opposite: thunderous denunciation and not even a vague attempt at what understanding. Me, personally, with both of these things I'm interested in why they happened, while not forgetting that there is no justification.

I find 'institutional racism' as the explanation to be, well, totally unilluminating. 'Institutional racism' doesn't drag 5000 drunk fucks down to the beach for a rumble (talk about 'ideological framing!). There's much more going on.

What other stuff? Well, shit, I'm no expert, never been there, but I've been reading tons about the background, so I'd suggest a couple of things.
1) Tribalistic nationalism - no brainer. Everyone who has had a look at the pictures can see that.
2) Aggression towards 'skips' from 'lebs' on the beaches over a period of years; a lot of reports have mentioned it, so it's clearly there, culminating in that attack last week on the life guards. it seems clear that the police have failed to adequately deal with this over time (although how much they can deal with low-level intimidation is really open to question), with the result being this kind of vigilante business.
3) booze, and lots of it, on the day.
4) young men like a fight, so when word gets round of a rumble, a lot of people will show up. Same as in France, where everyone was so busy parsing the political and sociological tea leaves that they ignored the fact that a lot of people involved in the rioting, probably the majority, were just enjoying smashing shit up. This is the same dynamic that animates all rioting - lots of people are itching for an excuse to break stuff and beat some ass.
5) normal territoriality, worsened by ethnic competition. despite the happy-clappy rhetoric, the reality is that diversity tends to exacerbate everyday conflicts and magnify them, especially in our super-touchy identity-charged times. of course, i'm evil, don't i know that 'diversity is our greatest strength' blah blah blah?

 

[droid]

Of course it is ideologically framed, as your defence/dissent/whatever would be! But this is all a side issue, really, so moving on...

Really? Can you tell me what my ideology is supposed to be then? My aim in such a discusion wouldnt be to defend dictators or Communism - but to ascertain an accurate view of the crimes of both sides of the divide.

I know youve gone into this in the 'American Power' thread - but if you care to start a new topic, with a more specific summary of your position, ill be happy to respond once I have more time.

RE: 'Institutional racism' - not a great term, but when you consider the rich seam of anti-aborigine and anti-immigrant racism that has been a defining factor in Australian domestic policies over the last 100 years or so its hard to discount it totally as a factor.

 

[bassnation]

Why not? What shaky assumptions? Were Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Mengistu, Pol Pot, and the rest of the constellation of dictators and Communist guerilla groups not responsible for the deaths of tens upon tens of millions of people? It's all a myth put out there to discredit the magical accomplishments of 'actually existing socialism'?

i realise this is a kind of jokey discussion, but throwing in pol pot or stalin (for christs sake) into a discussion about socialism is as much an instant argument loser as the old hitler thing.

i'm a socialist, i come from a working class background. i believe in workers having rights so they don't get fucked over. so does that really make me complicit in the bloody killing fields? of course, i forgot - trade unionism and mass murder - its all the same.

i think it would be good for this whole argument to move up a gear and for us to discuss some real things and even god forbid, admit when we are wrong. how good would it be to find some ground on which we agree, to see anothers point of view?

the punch and judy thing is ok for a while and god knows i've done my far share of trolling myself, but i'm tired of it now and net-based shouting matches are the main reason why i no longer seriously contribute to any net forum.

ps. not having a go at you personally pearsall, i'm always interested in what you've got to say, geezer.